[T:V] A Concern Regarding Skill

let me preface this by saying i'm keeping an open mind until the beta comes out. i'm not going to argue that the dev team doesn't know what they're doing; i'm just going to point out a few things i think are important.

so,

i've read that so far, the dev team has gotten rid of health kits, pack activation, and mine disking. (by pack activation, i'm referring to having to turn your pack on and off to manage energy manually - unless i misread that).

i don't think that these features *define* tribes, but i think they're valuable to the game as skills to master.

the health kit gives an added dimension of knowing when to use it, scavenging enemies to stay alive longer, and even passing it off to an injured teammate (like lights tossing rep kits on the HoF).

i like pack activiation because everyone can still use the pack regularly, but good players will gain benefits from micromanagement of clicking it on and off (not even huge benefits, but a slight edge from taking the time to learn how to do it properly).

i'm not sure if the minedisk was taken out for balance reasons or for newb-friendly reasons (or both?), but to me, the MD, along with skiing, is one of the talents people have worked hard at perfecting over their tribes careers. i like it because it's not hard to hit an easy one, but it takes a lot of skill and timing to hit one on a fast moving target with a lot of action going on around you. i've never felt that it was imbalanced in previous tribes games, but maybe with the armor strengths in T:V, it's not feasible.

the main concern i'm trying to get across is that these three features, among others, seem to me to be excellent small skills that aren't hard to figure out, but can be very hard to master. it also seems odd that the grappling hook (which can't be easy to use effectively) is thrown in, but these features are left out.

in the end, the only reasons i can see to remove the features i've discussed are for balance reasons or that they're not intuitive. balance issues are entirely at the discretion of the dev team and i can't speak to those issues without playing the game. as far as intuitive goes, i wouldn't say that any of them are weird or don't make sense.

i recall learning to play tribes in '99. it felt great to figure out these little things. after i figured out how to use the repair kit and the repair pack and to minedisk, i felt empowered, not burdened.

imo, people LIKE small skills and tricks they can use. please don't dumb down the game too much :/

i don't agree with a few points there, but I can't be bothered replying at them, so I'll give you this : Grapple hook, buckler only 2 examples of weapons that will take a long time to master,and who knows what whitty things ppl will come up with for these guns

i recall learning to play tribes in '99. it felt great to figure out these little things. after i figured out how to use the repair kit and the repair pack and to minedisk, i felt empowered, not burdened.

imo, people LIKE small skills and tricks they can use.

There's going to be new skills and tricks to learn.

There are some as Vicelord mentioned and I hope there's a few more things we have to "discover" and "master" with the "new" game, T:V.

With T1/T2 we've mastered it all. There'd be nothing exciting about the mine/disk, pack management, repair kits we've been doing it for years. Adding those things wouldn't make T:V new and exciting, it'd make it rehashed and dry.

I look forward to new elements to master. I hope they come through! If not, we always have mods to work in the skills/features we want.

there would be nothing new and exciting in those *three* features for people who have already played T1&2 extensively.

but as people here are so fond of pointing out, we're trying to attract new gamers. if they haven't played T1&2 (or only a few times), it'll be new and exciting to them.

i simply don't see any reason to leave it out, aside from the balance issues i discussed.

I wonder if T:V will have any other big announces? with new weaponry or whatever.. i'm curious :)

on the subject of packs tho, i do like the idea of passive vs active pack abilities.

there would be nothing new and exciting in those *three* features for people who have already played T1&2 extensively.


MD and repkits aren't new and exciting to T1/T2 players... :shrug:

I wonder if T:V will have any other big announces? with new weaponry or whatever.. i'm curious :)

we're still in the dark about one vehicle.

I want toggleability, but they need to change the shield pack and that speed pack somehow, because they'd just be sooo goddamned powerful.

I want toggleability, but they need to change the shield pack and that speed pack somehow, because they'd just be sooo goddamned powerful.

That's the whole point. :)

If all the packs are really powerful, that's a good thing.

Energy pack is badass, Repair pack is badass, shield pack is badass, and
speed pack is badass. That's balanced yes?

Let's be honest. In tribes 1, the energy pack was by far the best all around. Do you really want one pack to dominate the game? If other packs are REALLY good, then people will be hard pressed to choose. That's a good thing. Will be a big deal to pick a pack, that's what they are going for methinks.

There are some as Vicelord mentioned and I hope there's a few more things we have to "discover" and "master" with the "new" game, T:V.

With T1/T2 we've mastered it all. There'd be nothing exciting about the mine/disk, pack management, repair kits we've been doing it for years. Adding those things wouldn't make T:V new and exciting, it'd make it rehashed and dry.

I look forward to new elements to master. I hope they come through! If not, we always have mods to work in the skills/features we want.

Although I share your concerns Vermouth, I believe this is a really well spoken statement.

I really don't want to be doing all the things we did in Tribes 1 and 2. I have heard the devs say they want to give us tools to experiment with and discover tricks with. I believe the devs are trying to re-create the experience of discovering things over time that are powerful that even the devs didn't think of.

Making tribes 1 again with better graphics would be the safe route, but I'm tired of tribes 1. We can only hope that all the little trinkets they give us will take a long time to master like the trinkets in tribes 1.

Think of it this way. If they succeed, then it will much more fun then a re-created tribes 1 and it will open the gate for Tribes 4, and tribes 5, etc...

They really are taking the riskier and more fun route. Let's just cross our fingers and hope for the best.

I'm saying that toggleable shield and speed packs would be even MORE powerful than they are right now. Possibly to the point of the shield pack being simply overwhelming.

i hate it when i agree with KillerOne.

I'm saying that toggleable shield and speed packs would be even MORE powerful than they are right now. Possibly to the point of the shield pack being simply overwhelming.

I gotcha zoolooman, I realized this in the other thread. :)

Do we know that the MD isn't possible?
We know that the mine is a deployable so I guess that would mean you'd only get one, but I don't recal anyone saying it isn't possible.

There is something thouroughly gratifying about nailing someone going mach-10 with a MD.

i hate it when i agree with KillerOne.

wtf :ugh:

more :heart:

;)

Do we know that the MD isn't possible?
We know that the mine is a deployable so I guess that would mean you'd only get one, but I don't recal anyone saying it isn't possible.

There is something thouroughly gratifying about nailing someone going mach-10 with a MD.

They've said in the past that you can't MD. at least not in the way you could in T1 and T2 classic.

I just typed a huge post and then it got deleted because someone hit my back button. Maybe I'll type it later but now I'm pissed.

I will say this: I am GLAD the minedisc has died.

It's only a skillful operation if you use it that way. The utter majority of minediscs are used in areas where they cannot help but connect. In other words, where they are cheap. Hitting a fast moving object with a splash the size of a mortars isn't extremely difficult. Especially as you know where to aim. Why have a HoF when all you need do is have a light somewhere near the flag scanning for cappers, and obliterating them when they hit the flag?

Personally, I feel that the exclusion of the minedisc will make for a more skillful game.

The repair kit was left out (provisionally) because it created a vicious cycle between vets and nubs. The nubs would die without using thier kits, the vets would grow stronger, ultimately some nubs would quit out of frustration. The current repair pack covers the "heal the HoF" portion, adding repair kits back in would make the HoF almost unkillable (think repair packer/farmer nearby, a "repair spike" turret nearby, everyone and thier mother tossing rks to him AND him wearing a shield/repair pack? owch...). The Repair Pack adds in what skill was lost when "tossing around repair kits" was taken out. Not to mention the repair patch drop that KP is/was testing.

I think whatever skill was in energy management died because of the new pack design, not from the devs actively hunting it down. The ONLY pack this ever applied to was the shield pack. If you had good shield management you lived; poor, you died. It was almost that simple. Now without massive damage attacks (minediscs from lights) and being able to dodge shots instead of being forced to take them on the shield by walking every where (new design) the skill of energy management has been transplanted into movement. The shield has become less a "survival pack", and more of an "insertion pack". Once you own thier base, you grab a repair pack and go to town.

the main concern i'm trying to get across is that these three features, among others, seem to me to be excellent small skills that aren't hard to figure out, but can be very hard to master. it also seems odd that the grappling hook (which can't be easy to use effectively) is thrown in, but these features are left out.

First off, the grapple itself adds in at least three "small skills" that aren't hard to figure out, but can be very hard to master in my mind: "Bending" a route with a grapple shot, "fishing" for a flag in the field at speed, and slowing down a hot capper. Until we've played with it "which can't be easy to use effectively" is a functionally null statement. You condone little tricks that people can use, yet you deny that the object most likely to provide some of these tricks is possible to produce them. It just sounds like you want your repair kit, mine disc, and old shield pack back.