[T:V] A Concern Regarding Skill

My concern is they are taking out good things and replacing them with unknown things. They may be great, but they may suck...dunno gotta wait and see :(

Thats another reason why I'm glad the mine disc is gone.

Everyone KNOWS how it's done... no "wow" factor any more.

With a new game will come new "little tricks" that you love so much. Give it time.

First off, the grapple itself adds in at least three "small skills" that aren't hard to figure out, but can be very hard to master in my mind: "Bending" a route with a grapple shot, "fishing" for a flag in the field at speed, and slowing down a hot capper. Until we've played with it "which can't be easy to use effectively" is a functionally null statement. You condone little tricks that people can use, yet you deny that the object most likely to provide some of these tricks is possible to produce them. It just sounds like you want your repair kit, mine disc, and old shield pack back.
i like this a lot.

paraphrase: "Vermouth, you're just assuming that the grapple will be hard to use effectively, but you don't know what you're talking about since you haven't played with it yet. btw, here is how it will be used in t:v and here's what it's like. oh yeah, i haven't played t:v either."

that makes a ton of sense.

also, quote: "You condone little tricks that people can use, yet you deny that the object most likely to provide some of these tricks is possible to produce them." less trying to sound smart, more actually being smart. i SAID that the grapple is a skill weapon.

and, quote: "It just sounds like you want your repair kit, mine disc, and old shield pack back." what tipped you off? the fact that i said that explicitly?


it's like you need to repeat yourself 5 times to get something across. to re-iterate:

1) yes, i know that t1 and t2 players won't find MD/RepKit/toggleablePacks to be new.

2) *** NEW PLAYERS *** will find them to be new.

3) unless i'm mistaken, we're trying to attract new players, not make something for the sole use of this community.

4) while no one argued with this, but may as well say it again, MD/RepKit/toggleablePacks are all good examples of smaller skills to learn, and fun to do right.

5) MD/RepKit/toggleablePacks aren't mutually exclusive with having a *new* game. that is, having those three features won't make it T1 with better graphics, or T2 without soupy air. with the addition of the grapple, it already has an entirely new dimension of gameplay.

6) while i have not played T:V yet, i guarantee that using the grapple effectively won't be easy. how do i know this?
a. it's harder to hit targets when you're moving
b. the apex of skill for the grapple will be to hit targets while moving
c. even beyond that, to use the grapple to the fullest extent, you'd probably have to hit a specific target (like a wall or post) while moving and at a certain point, distance, and speed in your route in order to hit the appropriate route when the grapple slings and releases you.
obviously novices will be able to use it to hit things from a standing position or to pull themselves places without too much trouble. i predict that effective use of the grapple (in routes) won't happen for at least 4-6 months after the game is released.

7) once again, i know it's a new game. i'm reserving judgment until the beta comes out. i'm just expressing a *concern* (see title of thread) about some of the dev's choices, not facts that T:V sucks or is too newb friendly.

The dev team isnt trying to mess anything up that the tribes community aprechiates from the Tribes series. They are simply just fixing the things that could have been better in the previous games and adding more to the game that will increase the qaulity of the gameplay for everyone. Whether you like a few ideas theyve put out so far or not, dont knock it before you try it. Just wait patiently for the beta. If there is somehting you hate in the beta, that would be the appropriate time to complain about it. Dont whine about somehting youve never seen or tried.

The dev team isnt trying to mess anything up that the tribes community aprechiates from the Tribes series. They are simply just fixing the things that could have been better in the previous games and adding more to the game that will increase the qaulity of the gameplay for everyone. Whether you like a few ideas theyve put out so far or not, dont knock it before you try it. Just wait patiently for the beta. If there is somehting you hate in the beta, that would be the appropriate time to complain about it. Dont whine about somehting youve never seen or tried.
"appreciates"

and read point 7) in my previous post.

I wasnt directing it to you, but everyone. ;) I can respect someone, like you, for expressing a concern but not busting on the game becaiuse of one thing that doesnt *sound* good. Sadly most here think they can do better than the dev team. Im glad those ppl arent a part of the designing. :) I swear the tribes community whines the most about change more than any other ive been a part of.

I think knocking someone back with the buckler, then grappling them and flinging them around, and finishing em off with an MA will be a bit more difficult than the MD

:heart:

Until we've played with it "which can't be easy to use effectively" is a functionally null statement. You condone little tricks that people can use, yet you deny that the object most likely to provide some of these tricks is possible to produce them. It just sounds like you want your repair kit, mine disc, and old shield pack back.

i like this a lot.

paraphrase: "Vermouth, you're just assuming that the grapple will be hard to use effectively, but you don't know what you're talking about since you haven't played with it yet. btw, here is how it will be used in t:v and here's what it's like. oh yeah, i haven't played t:v either."

that makes a ton of sense.


At least it makes more sense than simply denying that it could be easy to use. Perhaps I should expand on it. It sounds like you want your mine disc, repair kit, and shield pack back, at the expense of something new.

The minedisc is old and tired. Glad it's gone.
The repair kit's functions are not needed as much/at all with the other items in the game.
The shield pack is designed to function like the other packs. Shield management is no longer a "turn it off when you don't need it" but rather a "turn it on when you need the hell out of it".


Point 1: And vets don't need anything new and fun?

Point 2: And vets don't need anything new and fun?

Point 3: EXACTLY. Including any of the three wouldn't be a move toward attracting new people, but rather toward appeasing the current community (and damaging to the game in some respects IMO).

Point 4: And coming up with/learning all new tricks won't be just as fun?
.
Point 5: However they may be mutually exclusive with elements/design philosophies the Dev team feels should be in the game.

Point 6: Have you ever failed to hit the broad side of a barn with a disc when you fired at it, even on a parallel path? The grapple doesn't NEED a point target to be effective. This should be obvious. Unless you're intending on grappling a radio whip antenna (which only the extremely skilled might try, I know I wouldn't, except in desperation), you should be able to use the grapple effectively. The Devs are likely to see to that. With the easier correction for routes via "gliding", and the skill of cappers coming from T1/2, I give it weeks, at most.

Point 7: Your concern seems vested in the inclusion of 3 very specific items, rather than the overall skill (see title) in the game.

The minedisk was broken.

Packs (and the way they were activated) was not balanced. The new repair pack is DEFINITELY better than before, as is the epack, and the new speed pack. The "activated" shield pack means players can't sit indefinitely with a shield ready at full charge before being attacked--they've gotta activate it intelligently.

The repair kit? It has its attraction, but realize this. The most valueable repairKit "looting" was done on players who died instadeaths--MOSTLY minedisks. With minedisks eliminated, repairKit looting will be less important.

But please...please don't equate the revision of a confusing gameplay element with dumbing the game down. Just because it took someone a week or two to figure it out, doesn't mean it took any intelligence.

I think knocking someone back with the buckler, then grappling them and flinging them around, and finishing em off with an MA will be a bit more difficult than the MD

:heart:


and far less efficient as well.

Efficiency and skill, while not mutually exclusive at all times (far from it) are usually at odds in a balanced weapon design.

Point 6: Have you ever failed to hit the broad side of a barn with a disc when you fired at it, even on a parallel path? The grapple doesn't NEED a point target to be effective. This should be obvious. Unless you're intending on grappling a radio whip antenna (which only the extremely skilled might try, I know I wouldn't, except in desperation), you should be able to use the grapple effectively. The Devs are likely to see to that. With the easier correction for routes via "gliding", and the skill of cappers coming from T1/2, I give it weeks, at most.

grappling the side of a building and ending up smashing into it is hardly a great use of the grapple. That being said, not every grapple is going to need to be super precise, but the better your aim with it, the better you can exploit the advantages it provides.

i'm sure that 90% of people will be able to use the grapple decently. It's the top 5% that can use it amazingly though that are going to do things with it that blow your mind, and make it seem easy.

(i have no idea what the point of this post is)

Efficiency and skill, while not mutualy exclusive at all times (far from it) are usually at odds in a balanced weapon design.

all i'm saying is while it may look great in a movie, it may end up costing you the winning cap as well. And i didn't mean to compare efficiency vs the mine disc which we know isn't in the game. I just meant in general.

really i'm just pulling borlak's chain.

(i have no idea what the point of this post is)

If referring to mine, about the same as yours...

By all means, pull away ;)

I sort of agree on the pack details, but people will adjust. Like instead of using the shield pack only when you are going to be shot, people will activate after they get down to 50% health, or something like that.

I don't know why they took out the health kit, but it seems the are supplementing it with a more powerful repair pack and DARTs (repair turret). Instead of tossing kits to a HoF you can just slap down the repair turret and let him heal himself. Or move it 10m off an he can walk near it.

Mine Discs were neat, but in T1 and T2 they were way too powerful. Half the fun of Tribes CTF is chasing, and the other half is dueling. Mine discs made it so that a ton of cappers were just luckily stopped on the stand, not to mention all the annoying stray mines everywhere in both games due to missed mine discs. I remember playing Classic before they put the mine disc in, and it was extremely fun and punctuated by a lot more dueling and chasing. Once the mine discs came in, it was all one hit kills and "see you first you're dead" combat reminiscent of games like CoD.

The main thing is, it's not T1 or T2, so you can't reference the game in that sense. I am fairly certain some tactics have not been though of by the dev team, but they will surely come up in beta testing when organize teams all hop on Ts2 or Vent and start trying stuff out.

At least it makes more sense than simply denying that it could be easy to use. Perhaps I should expand on it. It sounds like you want your mine disc, repair kit, and shield pack back, at the expense of something new.
where is it ever even implied that i want those three features at the expense of something new. i SAID that they're not mutually exclusive with a new game (see pt 5). trying to manufacture arguments wastes people's time.


Point 1: And vets don't need anything new and fun?

Point 2: And vets don't need anything new and fun?

Point 3: EXACTLY. Including any of the three wouldn't be a move toward attracting new people, but rather toward appeasing the current community (and damaging to the game in some respects IMO).

Point 4: And coming up with/learning all new tricks won't be just as fun?
see my point 5. there ARE new things to learn --> new weapons, new vehicles, new items, new gameplay. try responding to my points after actually reading them rather than trying to make it seem like i want T1 all over again when i infact said practically the exact opposite.

Point 5: However they may be mutually exclusive with elements/design philosophies the Dev team feels should be in the game.
anything is *possible*. read pt 7. that's why i'm reserving judgment until the beta.

Point 6: Have you ever failed to hit the broad side of a barn with a disc when you fired at it, even on a parallel path? The grapple doesn't NEED a point target to be effective. This should be obvious. Unless you're intending on grappling a radio whip antenna (which only the extremely skilled might try, I know I wouldn't, except in desperation), you should be able to use the grapple effectively. The Devs are likely to see to that. With the easier correction for routes via "gliding", and the skill of cappers coming from T1/2, I give it weeks, at most.
uh huh.

there's a difference between "being effective" and "using"

maybe i'm being imprecise. by "being effective", i mean "being good." to me the two are synonymous, but maybe other people don't see it the same way. either that or you're grossly overestimating how easy it will be or how skilled you and the people you play with are.

Point 7: Your concern seems vested in the inclusion of 3 very specific items, rather than the overall skill (see title) in the game.
as i said in my initial post, the exclusion of these 3 features appears to me to be a trend of "dumbing down" the game that i'm concerned about. further, i stated that i didn't (and don't) see any good reason to exclude them aside from balance issues.

i don't know if i can clarify it any further than that to prevent you from misinterpreting me, but i'll try if i can.

The minedisk was broken.

Packs (and the way they were activated) was not balanced. The new repair pack is DEFINITELY better than before, as is the epack, and the new speed pack. The "activated" shield pack means players can't sit indefinitely with a shield ready at full charge before being attacked--they've gotta activate it intelligently.

The repair kit? It has its attraction, but realize this. The most valueable repairKit "looting" was done on players who died instadeaths--MOSTLY minedisks. With minedisks eliminated, repairKit looting will be less important.

But please...please don't equate the revision of a confusing gameplay element with dumbing the game down. Just because it took someone a week or two to figure it out, doesn't mean it took any intelligence.
i'm keeping a really open mind about the packs. i like the idea of toggling on and off, but with the passive/active features, i think it'll have some nice depth.

regarding the looting of repkits: to me, looting was like 20% of what repkits were all about (if a percentage makes any sense). to me, repkits were good due to actually using them (you are able to stay alive longer, making for less trips from base to base on offense, or staying on the flag a little longer on defense, etc). the looting and passing to teammates is a nice dimension to them, but hardly the PURPOSE of the repkit.

like i said, we'll see what it's like when the game comes out. not having repkits won't make the game suck. eliminating a lot of small skills will, which is why the exclusion of these three particular features is drawing my concern.

grappling the side of a building and ending up smashing into it is hardly a great use of the grapple. That being said, not every grapple is going to need to be super precise, but the better your aim with it, the better you can exploit the advantages it provides.

i'm sure that 90% of people will be able to use the grapple decently. It's the top 5% that can use it amazingly though that are going to do things with it that blow your mind, and make it seem easy.
agree 100%

it also seems odd that the grappling hook (which can't be easy to use effectively) is thrown in
i'm sure that 90% of people will be able to use the grapple decently.
agree 100%

Recant much?

as i said in my initial post, the exclusion of these 3 features appears to me to be a trend of "dumbing down" the game that i'm concerned about. further, i stated that i didn't (and don't) see any good reason to exclude them aside from balance issues.
in the end, the only reasons i can see to remove the features i've discussed are for balance reasons or that they're not intuitive. balance issues are entirely at the discretion of the dev team and i can't speak to those issues without playing the game.

So, you're concerned about removing items that may be unbalanced but that offer a hefty "skill advantage"? I see NO "dumbing down" the game by removing the repair kit. I see no "dumbing down" the game by removing the minedisc. I see no "dumbing down" the game by changing how the shield pack works.

All I see is a Tribes game that's different and doesn't have exactly the same elements as the first two. "Skill" may mean something slightly different in T:V, but I doubt that anyone serious about making a "Tribes" game could remove enough skill from the game to make it deserve the label "dumb". (heaven knows it's been tried... Homing Missile Launcher... yeeeesh.)

Trust in Thrax and KP.

Then, IF, and only if, they can't deliver a fun game, roast them, slowly, with a nice BBQ sauce.

Personally I doubt we'll need the grill.