[T:V] so whats the flag going to look like?

About the only good part of a moveable flag, was that sometimes you could make some awesome plays by discing the flag to yourself. The speed of the game didn't allow these plays to be spectacular, but I remember being thrilled that I disced a flag up off the ground and run up through it and off in base.

Still, that only happened in Base because the flag was bouncy as a beachball filled with helium. In classic it, even while the "shootability," has been reduce, it is far more annoying than productive. The defense is at an ultimate advantage when the flag goes loose, since it is hard to grab with any semblance of speed due to an aware defender just discing the flag 2m out of reach. Many competitive matches where we have wanted constant pressure on the flag, we have had to wait till it returns, because grabbing a flag out of the field is extremely difficult if it is guarded at all.

Often, friendly fire meant to clear the flag of any defenders often make a friendly cappers dive at the flag come up empty.

Giving the offense the benefit in this situation is best IMO, T1 was full of great midfield flag grabs, and T2 it is very rare unless the capper comes cresting over a hill or surprises the defender. Comparing it to the lightning is fair, although flag scrums occure much more often on cluster maps than do lightning strikes. I have never seen a match won due to a random lightning strike, but I have seen plenty of returns where the flag bounces right into a lucky offensive player.

It's not all luck mind you, but to say that people are aiming perfectly to put the flag into a position to return is rediculous. There is no way a human being could account for all the discs and their respective forces on the flag, and while it may not be a gamebreaker, it introduces a lot of randomness into a game that is otherwise extremely skill based.

I think the flag should react to forces applied to it but the whole sliding on the ground shazbot is stupid. It's a POLE that drops into the ground. There is no reason why it should go sliding down an incline. It's a problem in T2 probably because of the frictionless skiing but I don't want to see such behavior in T:V at all.

I enjoy the gameplay element provided by movable flags but agree with LouCypher. I would like to see a flag droped in the field actually be droped in the field, not standing up as if with my last dying breath I drove it back into the ground. :closet: A flag laying on the ground, smoking as has been talked about would be cool. I don't see a problem with a flag rolling down the side of the mountain and landing on a cliff all the while flapping in the wind.

I enjoy the gameplay element provided by movable flags but agree with LouCypher. I would like to see a flag droped in the field actually be droped in the field, not standing up as if with my last dying breath I drove it back into the ground. :closet: A flag laying on the ground, smoking as has been talked about would be cool. I don't see a problem with a flag rolling down the side of the mountain and landing on a cliff all the while flapping in the wind.

No offense but that sounds kinda retarded.

Well, if it falls from a great enough height, and the fact that the pole has more weight than the flag, I would imagine it should stick into the ground. Why not just make it simple from there on out and say any drop of the flag makes it stick into the ground? I mean, all that flipping and tossing and turning and sliding and shazbot is something very important to the gameplay in this case and would be a serverside calculation.

Do you really want all that extra movement information being sent to you when you're trying to catch up to the thing? The resulting lag hiccup would piss so many people off. Not to mention what would happen if it hit something altogether odd as it fell, creating different flips and turns that, no matter what kind of calculation is taking place, might send the thing flying where it ought not to go.

if you have any decent speed, and dont feel the need to spam your 10 grens on the flag before grabbing, and use a single disc they might not even see you coming, zoom in to see if its mined, if not then dont fire at all, if they are going to MD fireing on the flag is only going to let them know you are coming

This man speaks from experience

Yes. There will certainly be a huge flame thread about one of our packs, as people who need to borrow a neuron to have a thought spend 700 pages trying to explain in detail why I've ripped the soul out of T1 / T2 (depends on what they like more :shrug: ) and nubified the universe. I'm looking forward to it. It's my dream come true.

--Qix 2.0


rofl!

I enjoy the gameplay element provided by movable flags but agree with LouCypher. I would like to see a flag droped in the field actually be droped in the field, not standing up as if with my last dying breath I drove it back into the ground. :closet: A flag laying on the ground, smoking as has been talked about would be cool. I don't see a problem with a flag rolling down the side of the mountain and landing on a cliff all the while flapping in the wind.

No offense but that sounds kinda retarded.

The reason I think it's retarded is because if there's a point in not having any type of realistic situation in a game, that suggestion was it. Especially in Tribes that kind of flag behavior just wouldn't lend itself well to ctf in any version of Tribes, imho.

I for one am for flag movement and if it's to be so it should be done in such a way that you could really play the flag.

[Khorne]Johnny X interpretation sounds more like a gripe than observing a flaw. I agree there are idiots who don't play the flag well when it's behavior is like that but that's "i-d 10 t" error and not a flaw. There are plenty of situations you could go for a loose flag while on Offense and force a return. It may take you off your route but it can be done to your teams benefit if you could force a return by simply heading for the loose flag nade launching it's area at opposing defenders, (Though snows tactic is the most preferred) who sometimes choose to duel or return. Sometimes you cause a distraction well enough for a teamate to grab in your stead while you duel getting a better oppurtunity of capping than you had when the flag was on it's stand full of expecting LD. It all depends.

I myself am in favor randomness that a moveable flag provides because it can be played right and it presents it own oppurtunities. Droping an enemy flag close by the stand is a pain though because it's easily defended but so what, boohoo. Wait for the return. Sometimes this gives a capper a better oppurtunity or more time to coordinate with HO/Offense.

Flags that lay flat don't make any sense unless they play like flags that stand up and are easy to grab. If they're simply hard to see then that's even worse than a moveable flag to me and much easier to defend. That would be extremely annoying.


OK after reading the thread this sounds more like bias as either having the flag movable or immovable only changes the dynamics of the game obviously and how it's played. Obviously, the PRO here to those who matter is commercial because having a game where the action is high with little possibilities for lulls in the action will benefit the majority. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand but only common sense. It's about broad appeal and not small localized preferred niche's. It's the nature of beast which is what I like to call the "1' Hollow chocolate bunny rabbit!!" Tastes good, appealing but NOTHING INSIDE!!! *stab* Ha!

Anyway, the "obviously more engaging non moving flag" helps the game go on with little lulls and ensure some kind of action and reaction that is predictable.

I myself would be in favor of a flag that acted as an object that could be moved but that it's physics or bahavior was more predictable and stable than the model we have in T2 cause I have to agree that the T2 flag's physics are junk. It's movable but a serious counter productive way. Movable flags do lend it's benefits to defense. You can't deny it and the points made in this thread say it without saying it. Is that bad? It just means you have to change plays that's all, boohoo.

I have a feeling that the pros that Zoolooman points too will win in the minds of developement unless that said developement have some nice behavioral designs and physics to add into the game making the flag behave in such a way that it lends to the skill of the player/s and game type. Whether it be semi or completely movable that are positive to the game type. Whatever. As long as the design is an improvement, that's all I care about.

Well, if it falls from a great enough height, and the fact that the pole has more weight than the flag, I would imagine it should stick into the ground. Why not just make it simple from there on out and say any drop of the flag makes it stick into the ground? I mean, all that flipping and tossing and turning and sliding and shazbot is something very important to the gameplay in this case and would be a serverside calculation.

Do you really want all that extra movement information being sent to you when you're trying to catch up to the thing? The resulting lag hiccup would piss so many people off. Not to mention what would happen if it hit something altogether odd as it fell, creating different flips and turns that, no matter what kind of calculation is taking place, might send the thing flying where it ought not to go.


Agreed! And you could probably further lend this analogy as to why dead bodies no longer register in the land of the living n light of the randomness of ragdoll physics which is close what would have to be applied to the physics of said flag to perform as suggested and to perform this way predictably over many connections would weigh heavily on server side calculations and making further aformentioned cons spoken by Necrosen make this a very a balderdash feature which in short means, IT WOULD STINK! :D

Did that sound smart?

The sun is coming up! :scared: Goodnight

I didnt mean it literally. :) Just some type of flag landing other then perfectly vertical at all times would seem like a nice element. Grabs etc. would be unaffected, I wasnt thinking of laying the flag down or having it tumbling thru the air or down a mountain side.

Currently the flag is moveable if you can hit it with the grappling hook. I have not read anything that says the flag can or can not be disked but we know it's moveable to some degree right now.

No discing or otherwise moving the flag in the field (unless you grapple it).

I experimented with making the flag a bit like one of those inflatable clown things with a weight on the bottom, the idea being it would at least wobble somewhat realistically in the field. Heh, this didn't work at all...

I dunno about a flag lying on its side in the field. It would seem strange to me but I'm just used to seeing a vertical flag. I'd have to try it,
KP

I dunno about a flag lying on its side in the field. It would seem strange to me but I'm just used to seeing a vertical flag. I'd have to try it,
KP

Let us know how it comes out. ;) Besides it's site value or lack there of I don't ever see a reason for a flag to lie flat. Not in a game anyway, lol. I mean, if you want to be realisitic about it, who fights and frags over a freaking flag? That's got to be the most unrealistic part of this conversation. Why don't you make the flag a hostage. yea! good idea. then the hostage could lie down when you drop him in the field. :rofl: and roll down hills etc

I jest.

Non verticle movement of the flag when it's in the air has another positive non cosmopolitan effect....you can see better where its falling, often is very difficult to distinguish where the flag is when it's in mid air, especially when you underneath and other stuff is falling at the same time(weapon, body pack). And personally i'd like to see more ma flag grabs

No discing or otherwise moving the flag in the field (unless you grapple it).

I experimented with making the flag a bit like one of those inflatable clown things with a weight on the bottom, the idea being it would at least wobble somewhat realistically in the field. Heh, this didn't work at all...

I dunno about a flag lying on its side in the field. It would seem strange to me but I'm just used to seeing a vertical flag. I'd have to try it,
KP


Thats going to be an interesting element of play. I assume both defense and offense can move the flag with the grapple. Also, I like the wobbly flag idea if it worked out. The flag could have a weighted ball at the bottom and sit in a little dip at the flag stand. It would also allow that little bit of movement /slide when on a steep surface while remaining vertical. Looking foward to Beta

:bluecap: :deal:

No discing or otherwise moving the flag in the field (unless you grapple it).

KP

I don't know if I missed it somewhere else, but thank you for the clarification on flag movement.

If what I'm thinking Bash is thinking of is right, then it would just look utterly stupid IMO.

Body, pack, and weapon all flying off in seperate trajectories, while the flag inherits no momentum from the capper when he dies? Aristotelian physics don't mesh well with Newtonian physics.

Perhaps if it had more "air resistance" (inherited horizontal velocity decreases over time) to give it a tighter arc to it's decent trajectory...

Makes me wonder, unless it's already been said and i missed it. What's the approximate distance the grappler can go before its reached its maximum grapple range?

Eg: i do a team assisted buckle jump + nrgy pack boost which successfully launches me to a point where i have a direct line of sight to the flag (which is a fair distance away). Pow. I snag it with my grappler. Similar to fly fishing, if that's what fly fishing is like.

Possible or rediculous?

i do a team assisted buckle jump
Umm... do what now?

+ nrgy pack boost
If what I thought you did with the buckler was what you did, you'd have to spin around damn fast, and accurately. The Epack fires in the direction you are looking, so if you're covering your butt with the buckler and try to combo it instantly with a epack boost (which degrades in effectiveness the faster you go) you probably aren't going to get much more a regular disc jump would leave you with.

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I doubt that it's going to be a very long grapple cable.

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Possible problems I can see with "fishing for flags" even in the field.

Long range recovery.
Long range ski-by field grabs. (or even walk-by with the, hopefully to be renamed "Kinetic Pack", speed pack).

Though not necessarily problems per se, they could evolve to cheapness quite quickly. Knock the flag off the stand with a "slapshot" (though not with the extreme range of the TR2 slapshot) for another LO to winch in...

Will need to look at this in beta with a very critical eye to determine weather or not it will stay viable for competition down the road.

the flag should be movable in my opinion, it added more gameplay dynamics to having flags down in the field in t2.

i do a team assisted buckle jump
Umm... do what now?

Skepticism/idea mentioned earlier.


+ nrgy pack boost
If what I thought you did with the buckler was what you did, you'd have to spin around damn fast, and accurately. The Epack fires in the direction you are looking, so if you're covering your butt with the buckler and try to combo it instantly with a epack boost (which degrades in effectiveness the faster you go) you probably aren't going to get much more a regular disc jump would leave you with.

That's assuming for some odd reason i want to do a buckle jump and a boost with the e-pack at the same time. Hypathetically speaking, i could do a buckle jump, jet a little and give myself a bit more height (while turning ), then when facing the direction, use my e-pack to give myself a boost.




I doubt that it's going to be a very long grapple cable.

Hopefully so. But we don't know for sure how long it is.


Possible problems I can see with "fishing for flags" even in the field.

Long range recovery.
Long range ski-by field grabs. (or even walk-by with the, hopefully to be renamed "Kinetic Pack", speed pack).

Though not necessarily problems per se, they could evolve to cheapness quite quickly. Knock the flag off the stand with a "slapshot" (though not with the extreme range of the TR2 slapshot) for another LO to winch in...

Will need to look at this in beta with a very critical eye to determine weather or not it will stay viable for competition down the road.

Yes, those would be possible problems. Especially if you can act like the head of a train, grapple the flag, switch weapons and fly off with the flag trailing [nicely] behind you.

Again, all skepticism.

Flags should stand upright for the simple reason of "function" over form. A flag laying flat against the terrain would be alot harder to see and wondering around searching for a flag lost in the grass doesn't sound like fun. You'd need to add in a HUD marker over the flag and thus it'd be just as easy to keep it upright at all times.