[T:V] so whats the flag going to look like?

The flag model is going to look like a giant penis.

The flag model is going to look like a giant penis.

Hooray!


I hope you cannot concuss the flag in T:V. If anyone wants to read a huge, detailed, point by point post, displaying exactly why I think you shouldn't have the flag moved by your shots, then just ask, and ye shall recieve.

I wish to recieve. eerrrh, maybe that came out wrong

ahhh but should oyu be able to grapple the flag, and in what situations....

Concussing "Shootable" Flags
__________________

http://users2.ev1.net/~jasonsharp/flagshot1.jpghttp://users2.ev1.net/~jasonsharp/flagshot2.jpg
http://users2.ev1.net/~jasonsharp/flagshot3.jpghttp://users2.ev1.net/~jasonsharp/flagshot4.jpg
__________________

Part I: Breakdown

There is skill associated with both "shootable" and "stationary" flags. For those who don't know the terminology:


"Shootable" flags are moved by the concussive effects of explosions.


"Stationary" flags are unaffected by weapons fire.


The question is, which flag type is better? Of course, this is a matter of opinion, but I think the high benefits and low negatives associated with a "stationary" flag model overwhelm the low benefits and high negatives associated with a "shootable" flag model.

In the following post, I will endeavor to cover the high and low points of each model, and then I will compare the two models to reach a conclusion about net benefit.

Be forewarned: these arguments are presented in the context of Tribes 1 and Tribes 2, and therefore are not necessarily applicable to Tribes: Vengeance.
__________________

Part II: Starsiege: Tribes, a Flag in the Field

A carrier dies, as has happened a million times before, and will happen a million times hence. His flag will either be picked up in the field, returned, or in this case left in place.

The defender has his reasons. He feels that the flag has secured itself into a nook or cranny that cannot be easily assaulted. Maybe he feels the enemy offense or friendly defense will suffer or benefit. It doesn't matter. What matters is the result of the offense meeting the defense, and the flag scramble that ensues.

This is a branching moment. So much can happen:


If the offender picks up the flag, this can become a chase.


On the other hand, the offender might only hold the flag for a second, changing the dropped flag's position and resetting its timer.


The defender might return the flag, possibly leaving the offense out of route.


The defender might shoot the flag and kill the offender, possibly resetting the flag timer.


The offender might shoot the flag, preventing the defender from returning it.


The defender might shoot the offender, leaving the flag untouched.


The offender might miss the flag, intent on harrassing or killing the defender so that another offender can attack the flag.


In all of these possible events, the flag's position is known, and the only game elements important to the players are the nearby terrain's shape, and the players' positions. They don't have to worry about the flag moving around.

In other words, with a stationary flag, there are lots of possible resolutions, each requiring a level of concentration and skill from both the offense and defense. None of these resolutions require anyone to give a hoot about the flag's position, because position is merely part of the surrounding terrain.

Unfortunately, the stationary flag has a negative. It lacks several of the long distance harrassment effects available with a shootable flag. I believe these are unimportant effects, but they deserve their mention in section III, which starts now.
__________________

Part III: Tribes 2, a Flag in the Field

A carrier dies, as has happened a million times before, and will happen a million times hence. His flag will either be picked up in the field, returned, moved, or in this case left in place.

The defender has his reasons. He feels that the flag has secured itself into a nook or cranny that cannot be easily assaulted. Maybe he feels the enemy offense or friendly defense will suffer or benefit. It doesn't matter. What matters is the result of the offense meeting the defense, and the flag scramble that ensues.

Note that the defender might have moved the "shootable" flag, putting it into this defendable position. The shootable flag's mobility is both a positive and a negative aspect. It allows the defense to reposition a dropped flag into more defendable positions. Is this a good thing? I don't think so, because it puts the flag out of play, and slows down the games pace. Nevertheless, if you want to slow down the pace and aid the defense, then this idea may appeal to you.

Again, the meeting of O and D is a branching moment. Unfortunately, I've had to cross out some possiblities because of the shootable flag:


If the offender picks up the flag, this can become a chase. This is a major if, since picking up the flag is more difficult when the defender can move it as you get close. This can make it almost to pick it up at a high rate of speed.


On the other hand, the offender might only hold the flag for a second, changing the dropped flag's position and resetting its timer. This resolution is much more likely than the one above, as it is more difficult to pick up a "shootable" flag at high rates of speed.


The defender might return the flag, possibly leaving the offense out of route.


The defender might shoot the flag and kill the offender, possibly resetting the flag timer. This rarely happens, and when it does, it'll happen as is shown two bullets above. Most of the time, the defender will shoot the flag and it will bounce randomly, making it difficult (normally impossible) for the offensive player to adjust his route for a pickup.


Nevertheless, a skilled defender might disc the flag into himself. This is the first new addition to the skill list, and is only possible with a shootable flag. One of the negatives of a "stationary" flag is the inability to disc it into yourself, which is a skill and an interesting mechanic.


The offender might shoot the flag, preventing the defender from returning it, and if he is skilled, he might disc the flag into himself. See above, for this new skill is often considered positive.


The defender might shoot the offender, leaving the flag untouched.


The offender might miss the flag, intent on harrassing or killing the defender so that another offender can attack the flag.


Either player might panic and shoot the flag, beginning a flag scuffle where both teams are mainly discing the flag to keep it away from the other players.


In the shootable flag model, the big new positive is the control element. A player might be capable of shooting the flag into himself. Unfortunately, in return for this new skill, we lose the certainty and clarity of many possible flag events. Often, the other players can begin discing the flag far before you are within self-discing range. This capability often negates the very skill the shootable flag creates.

Ultimately, with a shootable flag, you drop much of the certainty and you tilt the balance towards the defenses' advantage.
__________________

Part IV: Comparison

When the flag is dropped in the field, we have reached an uncertain state. We have created a new, often unique flag position with disadvantages for both the offense and the defense. For a short period of time, the map is remade.

The difference between a shootable flag and a stationary flag is the stability of this new position. In Tribes 1, when a flag is dropped, players are able to adjust and play the new position without fear of its destruction. It becomes stable, and the players are allowed to concentrate on the other players, rather than worrying about the changing position of the flag.

In Tribes 2, when a flag is dropped, there is no stability. The movement of the flag is entropic: it degrades stability and cuts down skill, creating a lowest level scenario where the winner is the one who comes out on top by colliding with the flag in it's almost irreproducible Brownian motion. Like a bowl full of marbles spilled onto the floor, a Tribes 2 flag scrum is seemingly random in nature, and hence requires less skill and more luck. You can't play the position, because there is no position. Everything is malleable, dynamic, and ultimately unpredictable.

In comparison, Tribes 1 flag drops are ordered. They contain less random elements, and in tune with that, more chance for player skill to shine.

In other words, I'm saying the random effects of a shootable flag lower the capacity for skilled play.

You get one new effect in Tribes 2: discing the flag into yourself. Unfortunately, you earn this by redirecting the players' attentions away from one another and onto the almost random jittering of the flag. Effectively, you create chaos in exchange for the rare chance where you can throw the flag into yourself.
__________________

Part V: Conclusion

So you see, I support "stationary" flags because they aren't random or messy.

Games should rarely have chaotic factors, because chaos only lowers the skill required to handle the gameplay--this axiom can be exemplified by the lightning in Tribes 2. It never made the game any more skillful, but often it managed to cheat both defenders and cappers out of the chance to fight their opponents.

In the same vein, a Tribes 2 "shootable" flag constantly cheats defenders and offenders of the chance to fight one another. Instead, they are forced to contend with the motions of the objective. Truly, this concentration or "eye on the flag" fighting requires less skill and more luck than the combat found in a game with "stationary" flags.

Shootable flags are less elegant. Fin.

It seemed like in the last vieo i saw the flag in(Confrence vid) It was supost to resemble a normal flag but was a hologram and it had smoke coming out of it.

I believe KP said once you can move the flag but not in the way you might expect, not sure of the direct quote but it was pre grapple announcement days...perhaps he meant the flag can be grappled (hope not).

Zooloo: chaos is fun.

but i do have to agree on the movable flags, that it does dampen the skill. :roller: gj

Good points zoolooman, but you kinda point out the extreme position in each case. Who says if there was movable flags, they have to have physics similar to t2's flag, when some form of blending between the two could have the benefits of both.

For example the flag couple be extremely 'dense' in weight so it moves very little from blasts, but enough to dislodge it from a high ledge or nook on a wall or tree/rock. Likewise it could be set to have very little horizontal movement, but highish veritical movement making it more predictable, so u could scoop a flag up midfield of the crest of explosions (either from your own disc, or the 3 ld spamming it etc) and only taking some splash damage etc where normally youd be dead.

I just think it would be wise to have atleast some flag movement, cause i pretty sure T:V will have far more detailed shapes/walls/railings, lots more misc objects like boxes/crates, and far more vegetation like rocks and trees for it to get stuck on when dropped.

What extra fun it will be for ppl to have to do extra suicide runs to dislodge a flag away by having to pick it up from a gay spot so someone can pick it up with speed.

I prefer stationary flags. But whatever, T:V is a new game, so as long as it isint horribly annoying/adversely affects gameplay its fine by me.

I've always thought that a flag should grip in like a T1 mine does. Maybe for 5 seconds make it shootable and relatively light (a disc sends it a decent distance) so the defenders have a chance to push it in a better direction if need be, reward smart D, then it "sets in" and cannot be moved without player/flag collision (make it easier on the O and less random).

Hopefully it won't be that stiff "moon landing" flag. I like an animated one. Might be a cool effect to have the motion of the carrier direct the intensity at which is waves. However, I have nothing against the traditional Tribes "banner" style of flag either.

Zooloo, write my 5 page essay on wether or not Joseph Conrad is a racist in his writings please. k, thx.

Conrad wasn't an extroverted racist, but he was a product of his times. He tended to have subtle racist beliefs that were caused by cultural ignorance rather than premeditated malice.

"The defender might shoot the flag and kill the offender, possibly resetting the flag timer. This rarely happens, and when it does, it'll happen as is shown two bullets above. Most of the time, the defender will shoot the flag and it will bounce randomly, making it difficult (normally impossible) for the offensive player to adjust his route for a pickup."


how is that rare?I MD the flag just as somebody picks it up in MF alot .

Don't be pedantic. :P

The reality is, I had two bullets that explained almost exactly the same thing, so by the time I was writing the second list--based on the first--I felt like collapsing the two bullets into one. I made up a hand-wave excuse and then went on with the essay. If I had actually gone back to revise it or proofread it, I probably would have caught the mistake and corrected it.

Nevertheless, the overall point still stands.

and I still dont see how a nonshootable flag = more skill.Easier for O = skill seems to be the theme here on TW.

My essay has little to do with the gameplay favoring the O or D. I mentioned the easier defense because it was an effect of the shootable flag model, not because it was my primary complaint about said model.

In my conclusion, I state, "In the same vein, a Tribes 2 "shootable" flag constantly cheats defenders and offenders of the chance to fight one another. Instead, they are forced to contend with the motions of the objective. Truly, this concentration or "eye on the flag" fighting requires less skill and more luck than the combat found in a game with "stationary" flags."

In this case, the shootable flag creates less skill because the objective that forms the locus for player combat becomes random and chaotic, and random/chaotic elements are inherently non-skillful.

If a player cannot return or grab, and is forced to give up his various attempts at doing various things (such as those listed in the essay) because he has to scrum for the flag in hope of semi-randomly touching it, then you have effectively robbed him of the ability to play the game in a completely certain, highly skillful fashion.

Be careful to note that nowhere in my conclusion do I complain about the shootable flag model being too helpful to the defense.

It takes more skill to worry about a moveable flag, the people around you and the people coming.

And if we follow your logic I guess that means it takes more skill to shoot somebody flying in a straight line.If they flew randomly it takes away the shooter's skill because he has to think about where his target might go next.

To me, that seems as if you're saying it takes more skill to worry about the people and all the lightning in a Tribes 2 map. I consider a shootable flag to be semi-random. Sometimes, it does take more skill, and a player can pop it up into the air and catch it.

Most of the time, the number of shots in a real scrum are monstrous, and following the motion of the flag is more a matter of luck rather than skill. You get close, and you hope the next shot doesn't bounce it in a direction that is too far from your own movement.

I believe KP said once you can move the flag but not in the way you might expect, not sure of the direct quote but it was pre grapple announcement days...perhaps he meant the flag can be grappled (hope not).
I can't find anything concerning this, but hopefully they aren't intent on doing something so stupid. I doubt they would place such a feature, but who knows?

What the flag looks like doesn't hold that much importance to me. I would prefer that it be similar to T1 "banner" style like Hellsfury said.. T:V is a prequel afterall. If it's gay, someone will simply remodel/skin it.

There's not much more to say after Zooloo's post about the physics. I find "stationary" flags to be more acceptable. Although, I did enjoy shooting the flag away from offenders however chaotic it was.