Demo FOV for veng.

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you are just rehashing your previous posts. No need for that

the difference between football and tribes is that you cant go 100m oob in football to find that route that will take you to the endzone in 6 seconds flat...

Regardless of what you want to believe, making routes has been a defining aspect of what makes and breaks teams...if you cant get ho over to the base fast enough, they wont be nearly as effective...if your cappers are walking home...well...

people DO put time and effort into finding the one perfect little bump or dip, and I dont see how its fair to them to let everyone else just watch and copy

Well noone said that every match will HAVE to be recorded and distributed to the world. Just like player recordings don't have to be public.

The option, however, should definately be included. For those not so anal about showing a route. I mean, a 400k route is a 400k route isn't it? It's still execution and practice. It would probably take me a few hours to get the route I watch someone do down as good as they did it. Cause they found all the bumps, marked em and practiced.

Even still, I could probably just go oob and do just as good without ever watched that route. I dont' think routes are that mysterious. Or any other strat for that matter. It still always comes down to a players/teams execution that wins.

Players always comment about how Tribes isn't just about fps twitch skill and how you can overcome ping imbalances and whatnot by playing smart and by putting in extra time to find great routes and tactics.

If you simply give away everything that a team creates it severely diminishes the edge they had and the advantage they worked for and earned.

The discovery and mastery of skiing, and HO, and mine-discing, and shriking, and mso raping, and the evolution of capping and ld styles are what set teams apart and what made T1 and T2 fun for so long. Why accelerate this? The games are more fun when everyone is learning on their own, not when everyone tries to play the same way and knows the same routes and the best way to play maps. No communism plz thrax.

Maybe now in T1 and T2 it's all about execution, now at the end of the games when there are no new groundbreaking strategies and tactics and routes, but it hasn't always been that way, and it won't be in T:V.

I don't exactly know the nature of serverside demos, so perhaps this is overacting, but the idea of allowing an opposing team to review every aspect of a game from every pov is something I find disturbing, especially for teams wanting to scrim before a big match.

There is no law that says every match needs to be recorded, or that every recording needs to be posted somewhere. It's not an automatic thing at all. I think that posting demos of ever match above a certain level in a ladder (say Top 10 or 20) would be a good thing. I don't think anybody should have access to what goes on when a team is practicing tho.

Well noone said that every match will HAVE to be recorded and distributed to the world. Just like player recordings don't have to be public.

The option, however, should definately be included. For those not so anal about showing a route. I mean, a 400k route is a 400k route isn't it? It's still execution and practice. It would probably take me a few hours to get the route I watch someone do down as good as they did it. Cause they found all the bumps, marked em and practiced.

Even still, I could probably just go oob and do just as good without ever watched that route. I dont' think routes are that mysterious. Or any other strat for that matter. It still always comes down to a players/teams execution that wins.


I could easily write a book as good as Tom Clancy, so why bother when I can just change the name on the cover?

dumbing it down and ignoring the whole money thing, he put the time and effort into it an would be pissed if all I did was re write it word for word. If you can make good routes, then do it. I dont see how someone not wanting to give away the thing htey worked on for at least a few hours to people that are just to lazy to do it themselves makes that person anal...

Well, that's fine, we obviously have different views.

But I hope we all agree that having the OPTION to serverside demo should be YES. :)

Well, that's fine, we obviously have different views.

But I hope we all agree that having the OPTION to serverside demo should be YES. :)
no. Why would we agree on that?

There is NO reason why a team wouldnt want to review each and every match they played from the other team's perspective, so saying that not every match will be recorded is silly. Not everymap HAS to be recorded, but it will be..

it would also be an issue because it WOULDNT be globally distributed.

Lets say 5150 gets their servers back for T:V, like in t1 and t2. They were hugely popular and very good servers...when 5150 wasnt using them for a match, someone else often was. That would leave the demo of the match in the hands of 5150, not either of the teams (please dont say "well 5150 wouldnt need them" since this is just for arguments sake)

it could also be one team in the match having a better server than the other and playing all the maps on it, etc.

no. Why would we agree on that?

There is NO reason why a team wouldnt want to review each and every match they played from the other team's perspective, so saying that not every match will be recorded is silly. Not everymap HAS to be recorded, but it will be..cAn, it's called a "Server Demo" because only the server can make such a recording. So it's not like the recording will just happen. Somebody will have to turn recording on, then fetch the file, etc... There is no reason why every match would get recorded or have to be recorded. It's technically not any different than a T1 recording.

There is also not any reason to think that any admin on or off the server wouldn't be able to turn that off and on, and have everybody on the server notified that the match was being recorded.

You're being far too alarmist.

I'm still in favor of a ladder rule requiring every match to be recorded and every high level recording to be posted. That's just my opinion. I don't run the ladders.

I want server demos of high end matches. Then you can rerun the classic top matches where that crazy 100 meter mid-air disc won the game.

And you can watch it again and again and again, from every possible angle!

Competition has always been gapped. There's the untouchables and then everyone else. You want long standing highly competitive, exciting and CLOSE matches. You open up competition and let people be inspired by watching professionals at work. Let teams strive for perfection. Help them learn and strive to be the best.

How are you supposed to know how to play the game, if you've never seen it played? Growth by inspiration not frustration. Open up server demos to the community, I bet you see a HUGE growth in the number of teams that play on a ladder, as well as the level of competition remain and grow throughout T:V's life.

And once again, it's an OPTION and I hope teams allow server side demos to be public. T2TV defiantley created LOTS of excitement, everytime there was a cast. People saw some good strats, ideas and plays in an open forum. Noone got hurt. No team suddenly slid down the ladder cause people saw some strats and routes. It's rediculous to think that seeing routes/strats is gonna kill or stifle anything. Everything in sports and competition (all national sports), clearly shows and refutes that point. Long live public match demos.

It's true...Even in sports like football, it's the same.

The few days before a big game, the coaches always stress watching film of the other team. High school, college, even NFL. That doesn't mean that the other team is gonna get RAPED.

Maybe that's a bad example, because both teams watch film of eachother, but then again that's how it would be for T:V.

I think it is a good idea, watching demos of great players on great teams is one of the things i like about Tribes, just seeing crazy shots, caps, etc. makes you wanna play more and play harder, just like if you see a crazy catch or int in football...

Personally I think that if a "high level team" can only be creative enough to come up with a single set of routes, and no way to counter them themselves, they don't deserve to be a "high level team." Even IF someone sees a route performed LIVE beginning to end, figuring out how to do it themselves requires almost as much effort as backtracking the route from demo footage that is already available. You KNOW they came in at high speed from a certian angle, back track from there. If you know what you're doing you can get a similar route.

Being the best shouldn't mean you rely on a single strat for a map. Being the best should mean that you can win, even faced with a team that's using your own strats against you, or knows your entire strat. Teams should be known for thier ability to play, not thier ability to keep a strat secret.

Severside Demos would be a boon to video makers. Ever wanted to see that 100m MA from the opponents perspective? How about from a free-flight POV? A MA Mortar caught from a bystander's POV? How about running a shoutcast in the background while you watch the action from a POV you choose? All of those would be possible. Serverside demo would be worth more than they would remove.

Hmm, well what kind of stress would that put on the server's performance?
I mean it'd have to record anywhere from about 20-24 demos at the same time...

Someone mentioned about viewing a certain event from all possible angles, or something.. I don't see what you mean. Play a demo and then have observer style free-movement? Is this even possible?

Hmm, well what kind of stress would that put on the server's performance? I mean it'd have to record anywhere from about 20-24 demos at the same time...Not an issue. The global network stream does not equal all the individual network streams added together. It's only slightly larger than any one stream, so it's like recording about 1.5 demos at once, on a machine that doesn't have to do any rendering, etc... It's really a very light task for the server actually.

:browsmile:

It's all good! Little stress on the server, we get to see some awesome shots (Blind mortar MAs, etc), and it forces the best teams to get even better....

I like! :)

T1 observer demos are pretty much full serverside demos. Thrax is right about them being ~1.5 times larger than a normal demo

As for rewindable demos, couldn't it be something similar to GTA's replay system where the stream is saved to disk or RAM (not sure which it uses) whatever happened 30 seconds before? I understand that demos are a network stream, but it seems feasible that whatever is being streamed in demo format could be converted to a rewindable format as it happens by inserting a full update (keyframe) instead of a shortcut every second or something.. Then if you did decide to rewind, it would pick the latest keyframe, and parse the network stream from there.