What weapon is this? (pic)

like the spinfusor...it's just not tribes without a blaster!

bew bew!

It is a real reason when you get alot of people saying the same thing. It's a good reason.

No, then its just a popular reason. Never underestimate the ability of large groups of people to make very dumb conclusions, or to be swayed by a few elite members that misguide all of their so-called "invidual" opinions.

Many popular decisions turn out to be bad in the end, while many things that are hated by the masses at conception, end up being their salvation.

That still doesn't forgive the shocklance from being a stupid weapon Mr. Sniper.

It violates the principle of the heavy armor design. You entered it to have extra health and better weapons, in exchange for less jetting and slower walking.

The shocklance on the other hand, from a design standpoint, completely trumps the entire purpose of getting into heavy armor.

It kills heavies instantly, and it's short range disadvantage doesn't matter because the main target (the heavy) is large, slow, and unmanueverable.

It totally force trumps a fundamental game mechanic, and there is no equal counter mechanic designed for the heavy to utilize (because "turning around" isn't a hard counter like the shocklance; it is merely a soft counter.) Why is turning around only a soft counter? Because the lance still concusses and deals good damage, meaning it is still beneficial for our attacker to use the shocklance.

Viewed in pure balance terms like this, one sees potential problems. T2 was lucky, and it became a solution, and therefore became tolerable.

But when starting a new Tribes game from scratch, it would be one off those wildcard pieces that would end up on the "don't include" list of my design document, for obvious reasons. I'd rather tweak the fundamental game mechanic to become sufficiently balanced, rather than rely on a weapon that violates three good general design parameters to balance the game for me.

The shocklance violates:

1. Instant effects and kills should only be implemented when they have at least a net fun factor of zero or greater. (Shocklance is only fun for the shooter.)
2. A game mechanic should not break a fundamental game mechanic without well implemented counter responses. (Shocklances allow light defenders to blow away heavies in a single shot, and heavy armor is supposed to protect!)
3. A game mechanic shouldn't cover for inherent disadvantages without adding other disadvantages, unless this is a common theme in you design. (In Tribes, nothing covers inherent disadvantages except for the shocklance, and it doesn't have a disadvantage to replace the one lost. You trade away difficulty in killing heavies... and then have nothing taken away in return!)

I know that not everything can fit into the perfect game design, after all, most games do have balance flaws for ever and ever.

Nonetheless, the shocklance should be a pretty obvious "bloops, what were they thinking!"

I'd say the same about the mine disc.

On the gripping hand though, one could design either of these elements into the game if they chose. Then again, they assuredly wouldn't arrive in the same form as what was found in our original two games.

when I played HO (in t2) I would pay attention to the world around me, so I would rarely get lanced in the back plus in classic everybody MDs anyway :/.But the SL is fun (yes 4 me ) and from what I can tell the 1337 HO arent too worried about it.

The mine disc has always been around, except t2 base..
I have no problem with it, the light needs *something* to fight heavier opponents, and it doesn't really give anyone any big advantages since any armor can do it.
The only suggestion I'd have for it is add a small delay to the mine before it can be shot. The t2base mine didn't explode until it did that gay spin, which was about 2-3 secs after the initial throw. What I'm suggesting is a 0.5-1 sec delay so people have to lead their mine disc shots, or else you won't get the benefit of the mine, only the disc.

Zooloo, one thing of note when it comes to the lance. All of that is speaking purely from T2 base. The weapon is worthless in T2 classic when HO can move fast. Even if you're consistantly accurate with it, having an extra weapon slot + using mds is much more effective and consistant.

HO at fast speeds = Lance is worthless. The lance is a bad weapon if for anything else it'll always be underpowered or overpowered, it won't ever fit in balance wise. With T1 like speeds, the shocklance is a very underpowered weapon, with base like speeds, it was a very overpowered weapon. It's as simple as that.

Very true ZP.

"HO at fast speeds = Lance is worthless"

lol not always :)

No, always. In top t2 classic competition, no decent team is going to have someone use a lance for LD on 95% of the maps in the game. Regardless of how good that person may be with the lance. Since disc/md + the extra weapon slot is much more effective.

"HO at fast speeds = Lance is worthless"

lol not always :)

i remember oddable mentioned once that rt never let him lance.. heh.

No, always. In top t2 classic competition, no decent team is going to have someone use a lance for LD on 95% of the maps in the game. Regardless of how good that person may be with the lance. Since disc/md + the extra weapon slot is much more effective.

you didnt say in competition :P

Well because RT isn't stupid and letting him lance would be wasting a player.

The lance was a gay weapon, I and I'm not just calling it gay as an insult. Its premise was very Dave G.'esk. Let's sneak up behind them and shove this "lance" in their ass and turn it on. Its original pourpose was to be used in conjunction with the cloak pack, which we all found to be even more worthless then the Transport Airship. Instead its role changed to filling the slot of the LD for even the teams at the bottom of the ladder. WHY? Because it could do exactly what has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, kill heavies dead.... I've never been much of a fan of the M/D, however I will not bitch about it because it has a balanced effort in both T1 and T2. Heavies can M/D with effective practice in raping, or just HO'ing in general. LD use it for stopping heavies, and I've watched HoF's use it on occasion. The shocklance on the other hand had 1 pourpose in the end, stopping HO's. Be it lance in the ass while they are trying to ski in, or a HD using it to bounce HO's out of a base entry way. Eitherway the dmg level was not balanced and it was a poor weapon overall. Some would argue that the heavy is unbalanced against the light due to the mortar, which is bullshit simply because IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE. Also stopping a light with a mortar at close range is possible but in the end the heavy is going to be blasing away at least if not more then half his own health. What penelty does a LD take from lancing a fatty in the ass?

None.

So what I'm hearing is:

1. The Shocklance is overpowered because it can kill heavies in one hit.
2. The MineDisking also sucks.
3. Lights need something to stop heavies with.

So wtf, MDing sucks more than SLing (my opinion), because you can do the same damage from all angles, not to mention you have a higher chance of doing SOME damage with the splash, whereas a lance has to be dead on. At higher speeds the lance takes skill, in T2 base it was a bit overpowered. But we know that T:V won't be as slow as T2 base, so wtf does that matter anymore?

You want something for lights to counter heavies with, but you hate the SL because its a new concept and you would rather stick with the firmiliar MD even though most people don't like that too much either. Sorry, that just doesn't make much sense to me.

The SL was a victim of sucky balancing because of the initial T2 physics, not a victim of its own concept. A SL balanced against higher speeds, and possibly with the insta-kill removed (changed to more like a snipers headshot on a light, but only on a heavy and only in the back) would make it interesting. Oh, and for people who said that heavies had no way to defend, BS. Heavies in T2 base were just too lazy to look around as often as they should. If you look back everyone five seconds or so, totally reasonable if you know your routes, no one could touch you.

the sl also sucks because it's possible to cheat with it.

Mr Sniper:

Why not rebalance the heavy and redesign the maps to make heavies less uber-effective?

Why not use aggravated damage weapons that give advantage to more manueverable units if you want a weapon against heavies?

Yeesh.

That pic makes me wonder if you can talk to NPC's like in some RPG, like SW:KOTOR...