[T:V] Talk to me about the TR2-ish gametype

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VaporTrail
11-13-2003, 07:55 PM
A good gametype has a couple requirements, it must be fun to play, it must be noob friendly, and it must require some actual skill for high level competitive play.

Yes, I said noob friendly. Everyone has to play the game to beign with, and fall in love with it as a noob, in order to become good enough to progress to more advanced competition levels.

I'm willing to bet that very few people in here started playing Tribes in a competition format. Everyone probably bought the game, joined a pub, played around for a while and grew to like the game as a complete nub, THEN got involved in the competition side of things.

A game needs to be easily learned, simple rules for beginners, but those rules are enforced with an iron fist by the server (none of this "No O sniping, No rape till 10 v 10" MOTD stuff, because the nubs don't KNOW what O sniping is, or even what constitutes rape. The only reason that those rules are enforced is because the community has deemed them necessary for a fun game, and the Admins are from the community. Without the Admins, nubs become Osniping, baseraping whores... Point being that the basic rules must be that, basic, yet conducive to a fun game for Jon Q. Randomnub.). For COMPETITION style play, some stricter rules might be necessary, but to get someone hooked on the gametype it has to be simple.

Remember "Tag"? Run around and try to tag someone, who then becomes "It" and tries to do the same. That's as basic as the game got.
Eventually someone figured out that to be close enough get tagged, you were close enough to immediately tag them back... hence the more complicated "no tagbacks" rule. Hence the game is more complicated, yet more fun, for the advanced players.

Take TR2 for example.
TR2 had two major problems with the scoring system.
The "hyper-pass" where two teammates would snag the flag after a goal, jump up and hover in the air and build a 250 pt jackpot before the opposing players could even get across the map. This could be solved by a simple rule fix (game modification) that limited you to a single pass every 3 seconds or so.

Two, the easiest way to score was generally to build a moderate jackpot after a goal (usually by hyper-pass) and then rush the goal, and cowboy it in. This could be fixed by timer, the longer you hold the flag, the less % of the jackpot you would get from a goal. Someone who picks up the flag and chucks it almost immediately would get near 100% if it went in, someone who cowboyed it across the entire map would earn thier team about 10%. A slapshot goal or other pass to goal would earn a bonus, depending on the type. A ground to goal SS would earn a pittance, a long pass into a G4-slapshot goal would earn +100% bonus (or something major in that vein).

Those two rulefixes weren't necessary for pub play (well, perhaps some of the second one was). but advanced players would need them for anything like a competitive game.

T:V doesn't necessarily need a TR style gametype. I found TR and TR2 to be one of the most innovative gametypes to emerge in the last several years, as well as one of the most fun, and skill intensive. It's easy to learn, yet impossibly hard to master (in it's intended form at least, not the "ch34p" grabs that net you 50-60 points for doing almost nothing...) with the long range, high speed, high altitude passes being the province of those possesed with uber skills. In short it had the makings of a great game, and I hope to see it reemerge again.

Edit: for spelling and clarity.

Nevearion
11-13-2003, 08:25 PM
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the gameplay itself was altered a long time ago to account for most of the post goal creativity/jp whoring. It was changed so two consecutive slaps and beyond between people would be lama grabs. While the decaying jp idea has been discussed already, idk if anyone has taken the initiative to try that. But then, a decaying jp might not be very noob friendly--as you put it--either.

Flatscan
11-13-2003, 09:19 PM
Nev I love TR like you do. That said, let's be honest aside from a very small core group (Juke, Bugs, Abs, Invic, yourself, etc.) nobody plays now. There are 11 teams on the ladder (down from 13) and many of them couldn't field a full team (even at 3 people!!!).

Plenty of people aren't crazy about the current scoring system or TR generally. For TR to be successful in the future, it will have to undergo a considerable makeover in T:V.

VaporTrail
11-13-2003, 09:27 PM
Nope, was not aware of that. Last time I played was before the league "died".

As I mentioned before, the "demotape" movie that Flyguy did up that showed what TR2 could have been. A game that was fun simply to watch, was great to play, even if you lost.

Miracle
11-13-2003, 10:38 PM
I think KP should concentrate on guaranteed successful gametypes.

1. CTF
2. Arena
3. Duel
4. Deathmatch
5. An objective based gametype
6. Rabbit

Invictus-
11-13-2003, 10:52 PM
Nev I love TR like you do. That said, let's be honest aside from a very small core group (Juke, Bugs, Abs, Invic, yourself, etc.) nobody plays now. There are 11 teams on the ladder (down from 13) and many of them couldn't field a full team (even at 3 people!!!).

Plenty of people aren't crazy about the current scoring system or TR generally. For TR to be successful in the future, it will have to undergo a considerable makeover in T:V.

Bringing people BACK to a game is much harder than drawing them in in the first place. While it wouldn't necessarily have been extremely popular IMO Tr2 would have lasted longer than it did if it had started w/ a ladder and not a league. I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore but it popped up in my twirc :P.

edit: There are actually a decent number of noobs now too. The current game is a huge leap from the old one. However like I said it is very hard to draw someone in to a game they already dismissed.

Wulfen
11-14-2003, 01:10 AM
maybe I'll take a look at the code and see how quickly I could do it.

I think that I'd get a better idea of whether or not its a good idea by pubbing it with some volunteers.

I miss TR2. :(

Don't miss 'creativity', which was anything but.

Kaden
11-14-2003, 01:56 AM
I miss TR2. :(


Tribes ruined other FPS style games for me. TR2 may have ruined CTF for me :shrug:

ZenTseTse
11-14-2003, 07:07 PM
great thread, in spite of us being all over the place.

i think we ALL agree that TR and similar gametypes in other games have lots of issues we can debate. i think we ALL agree that we LOVE these sportsy gametypes.

but i think we ALL agree that usually these gametypes are not popular (although perhaps we'd not agree on exactly why any given one isnt uber-popular).

the question is whether we can see something really work down the line in T:V.

i think so. i think this thread has lots of gems in figuring that puzzle out.

Flatscan
11-14-2003, 07:42 PM
Bringing people BACK to a game is much harder than drawing them in in the first place. While it wouldn't necessarily have been extremely popular IMO Tr2 would have lasted longer than it did if it had started w/ a ladder and not a league. I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore but it popped up in my twirc :P.

edit: There are actually a decent number of noobs now too. The current game is a huge leap from the old one. However like I said it is very hard to draw someone in to a game they already dismissed.

Invic I 100% agree with your core point that its hard to bring people back. I don't think TRTWO can come back but I DO think TR can come back strong in T:V.

I disagree that a 1xers only scoring system is a good approach, however. The emphasis on 1xers in pubs really limited the game's appeal early on. The scoring system needs to be completely redone.

P.S. - I miss playing with ATOMICWulfey :/. /me waives =).

Archaic
11-14-2003, 11:37 PM
i'm a huge fan of one timers, but you could be right :]

i don't think i speak for the average TR2 gamer

Wulfen
11-15-2003, 11:39 PM
P.S. - I miss playing with ATOMICWulfey :/. /me waives =).

Same here. I'm not real sure about T:V yet, but I'm really hoping they get TR in there and right.

Fraggy Poo
11-16-2003, 01:22 AM
Change the name of the jackpot to combo. Have the combo start at 0 right when your team gets the flag, and have different passes/trounces/etc.. have different scores based on their difficulty. But each successful pass/trounce/etc raises the combo multiplier by 1. But for a pass to increase the multiplier, it must go a certain length or something. That makes it so the average "Tony Hawker" can easily understand the combo scoring system, and it puts a greater emphasis on passing/teamwork.

Basically -
Change the name from Jackpot, to Combo
Add in Tony Hawk style combo multipliers.

Just a suggestion, I love Team Rabbit, as well as Lakrabbit.. god thats a great mod.

Wulfen
11-17-2003, 11:26 PM
Change the name of the jackpot to combo. Have the combo start at 0 right when your team gets the flag, and have different passes/trounces/etc.. have different scores based on their difficulty. But each successful pass/trounce/etc raises the combo multiplier by 1. But for a pass to increase the multiplier, it must go a certain length or something. That makes it so the average "Tony Hawker" can easily understand the combo scoring system, and it puts a greater emphasis on passing/teamwork.

Basically -
Change the name from Jackpot, to Combo
Add in Tony Hawk style combo multipliers.

Just a suggestion, I love Team Rabbit, as well as Lakrabbit.. god thats a great mod.

Err, sorry, I'd just as soon not mention Tony Hawk with TR. I'm not interested in the 'average Tony Hawker' playing this game.

Dac346_99
11-17-2003, 11:43 PM
TR:V lol.

Make it open to newbies by lowering the skill curve and making simple passes and simple shots easier..
Make it open to l33t doods by allowing tricked out passing/stealing.
Create a defense... make playing defense more involved aka more defensive type positioning instead of a clusterfuck... sort of make it so there are defensive and goalie players and attackers and midfielders etc... The tr2 positions where not utilized imho and needed to be better worked with class specific items etc... although the mortar for goalie was cool :D Next thing is make a simple goal easy to score but balance it so that a good D can easily stop a lone offensive cowboy and create the need for one-time like passing but still allowing for a quickshot by the fast cowboy but it requires more skill and almost impossible vrs good d.

on another note imho and prolly not shared... get rid of scoring points and just make the game decided by goals.. still allowing the showboat shit and cool passes with highlights/sound effects but keeping it focused on scoring and moving the ball from goal to goal...

The most fun and really best fun I had in tr2 wasn't passing but in scoring and being goalie.. I personally would much rather have it be like Soccer/hockey/tribes then Tribes/Tonyhawk/flagpassing.

Kaden
11-18-2003, 05:50 AM
TR2 for me, was so 'right' its scary.

It may have destroyed any hopes I may have for CTF in TR:V... It will have to be one charming ass brand of CTF to get me re-interested.

TR:V or bust.

Riavan
11-18-2003, 07:23 AM
Really? I didnt think people liked TR2 that much? I certianly did from a cappers point of view. Its awesome practice. Might go about making some ss TR2 maps then :roller:.

mojotooth
11-18-2003, 07:25 PM
I disagree that it was awesome practice, and I think a lot of diehard TR2 players would share my point of view. It absolutely ruins your habits for CTF. The physics were completely different, water was something you actually TRIED to ski into in TR2, the flag moved differently...

Yogi
11-18-2003, 07:36 PM
I wished TR2 and classic shared physics (except for water). But since they were developed concurrently I guess it wasn't possible.

Riavan
11-18-2003, 07:44 PM
I know, but its good pratice for grabbing and stuff... Well it was fun anyway. Classic with tr2 physics could be done quite easily I guess. It would be strange though seeing as the TR2 player models are about 3 X the size of the normal ones, which might make the gravity physics diffrent? BTW mojo, its easy to change the water to however you like it, thats not a TR2 setting.