[T:V] Talk to me about the TR2-ish gametype

(quake ctf = tribes, CS = rocket arena, team fortress classic = quake tf, Savage = NS, etc etc etc).

Yeah, that was perhaps the most ambiguous statement I have ever read.

well... his specific linkages are... suspect, but his point is well taken by me.

MOST online FPS gaming takes place on user-made, community-made maps and/or mods.

i suspect TV will be unprecedented in terms of being a healthy platform for talented artists and developers to enhance, supplement or straight our change the out-of-box game. the engine is as good as it gets for modding, and TV oughta harness a whole lot of experience and interest on their way to press.

by next spring... there will be a major 2 volume book on modding the engine, along with a full DVD of video tutorials (3dbuzz.com guy).

finally, i am quite confident that the leadership around tribes knows what the community is capable of...

and we already have several stong mod teams lined up and working on projects. there's also a whole bunch of mappers geared to dig right into TV.

Basically what I was saying was that most gametypes that are in commercial games were first popularized through a mod.

For example, quake was written by ID. Some guy made a grappling hook, threw in some flags and you had quake CTF.

Tribes' main selling point was it's CTF game, which was essentially a gametype which was popularized throught he quake CTF mod.

Hence Quake CTF = Tribes CTF.

QED?

Basically what I was saying was that most gametypes that are in commercial games were first popularized through a mod.

For example, quake was written by ID. Some guy made a grappling hook, threw in some flags and you had quake CTF.

Tribes' main selling point was it's CTF game, which was essentially a gametype which was popularized throught he quake CTF mod.

Hence Quake CTF = Tribes CTF.

QED?

i understand your point, but dont see it the same way. CTF certainly spawned out of quake2... but i wouldnt then say Quake CTF = Tribes CTF. Nor was CTF a "mod" in original form.

I think CTF = CTF with different variations

Mods definately can carve out new territory and tap into gamer "pulse" in ways which developers OBVIOUSLY are aware of. But while I definately think mods are a DRIVING FORCE in online FPS gaming (not even necessarily all FPS gaming), I cant say that they are the source of most or all innovation in gameplay. Certainly, the user-made maps and mods often are the seedbeds for new, great ideas... but not the sole place.

Likewise, if i may be so bold... let me go back *insert silly music* to March of 2001... when tribes2 came out.

I had been playing UT like a mad-man for quite some time. And, for the record, UT was about CTF... not DM. CTF was by FAR the dominant gametype in UT, whereas Q3A tended more into the DM realm (quake2 was heavy CTF as well, if i remember correctly).

From my UT point of view, Tribes was not "about CTF" in any special way at all. What i KNEW of gaming was CTF. It was just taken for granted, a given. Tribes was about new physics, teamwork and larger scale stuff. For the UT CTF crowd that liked 16+ servers and big maps, it was a natural progression for us. Tribes1 had made a big impression, but didnt grab folks over (and many of us did play the demo... but it just got us hungry for Tribes2 rather than playing/buying T1).

But the IDEA of "Tribes" wasnt CTF. Certainly, in retrospect, to me Tribes CTF is kind of... a given still. Tribes without it makes no sense whatsoever (but then again, UT* without it makes no sense either).

I played mostly Siege my first 3-4 months of Tribes2... and so did a LOT of others... before the siege community imploded.

Sort of skimmed the post, and have been WAY out of the loop Tribes wise for quite some time... but I have a contribution:

Anyone ever remember seeing the TR2 shoutcast "demotape" that was done up by Flyguy (of the Sat. Night Pickup fame)?

I have it kicking around on my harddrive still, if no one knows where its hosted at the moment, I could probably put it up (temporarily) on my webspace so that someone else could grab it and host it.

Anyway, the point is this: the demotape was done up in a pickup game of TR2, back when it was fresh. No cheapass tactics involved, no hyperquick passing between two floating teammembers to build a jackpot, etc.

It showed (in my mind at least) how TR2 SHOULD have been, exciting, fast paced, fun just to watch (Kinda like rugby, if you're a fan. I'm personally not, but I can see how you can be) and as much fun to play.

Any TR gametype should be something like that, especially the sequence at the end of the video.

I don't know if that movie was ever released publicly, so I'm not sure how many people saw it. It was 150 or so Meg .avi file.

/me starts digging around in his harddrive

Featured some known, but a lot of unknown names, Flyguy, Phr33ky, Shin, Josie, Cyrus, SmallKiwi, KA (assuming KillerAngel), Homebrew, JHVOS, Us0r, Slylock, Dimi, and MasterGunner were all involved in some way, most were in the pickup we had going especially for that video.

Just trying to give a little background... enough rambling.

The point I'm trying to make here is this: Any scoring system should emphasize fun, for the players (both sides, sometimes just through "DAMN that was awesome" comments), and for any spectators. Imagine a gametype where tuning in to watch via something like TribesTV, thats as much fun as playing it yourself.

Maybe I just haven't played other FPSs enough, but I don't see the need for the DeathMatch gametype, particularly if Hunters is included. Hunters is newbie friendly in that if you don't know what's going on with the flags, you can still play it as DM and have fun, particularly if there's a good stats report at the end so you can compare how you did on other metrics besides score.

Maybe I just haven't played other FPSs enough, but I don't see the need for the DeathMatch gametype, particularly if Hunters is included. Hunters is newbie friendly in that if you don't know what's going on with the flags, you can still play it as DM and have fun, particularly if there's a good stats report at the end so you can compare how you did on other metrics besides score.

You're got it backwards. In most of the FPS community, a hunters style gametype is considered crap, because you can win with very few to no kills. Hunters rewards the scavenger - it detracts from the point of no team gametypes - killing. Pure deathmatch (if done correctly - tribes have NEVER had a good tribes oriented DM gametype) offers success to the player who is the best fighter, not the player who knows how to scavenge or gets very lucky.

I dont know about that...it seems to me that there is a lot of luck and kill scavanging in DM.

Jesus, now you fuckers want them to remove Deathmatch? Deathmatch is what started the online gaming craze to begin with. Remember DOOM anyone? Most of you probably never had the chance to play that over dial-up, but it's a blast. Especially playing with a bunch of friends over a lan.

I dont know about that...it seems to me that there is a lot of luck and kill scavanging in DM.

In Tribes deathmatch maybe. I've never had a problem with kill scavenging and kill stealing in any other game with a good deathmatch.

I think the secret to a good Tribes deathmatch would be spawning you with an inventory (the game's 3d motion is not conducive to picking up weapons all over the map, since you can't really camp the super weapon, and there isn't really a super weapon to speak of). That way the chokepoints on the map would be popular ammo and health spots (plus inventory stations so you can get into heavier armors than light).

In Tribes deathmatch maybe. I've never had a problem with kill scavenging and kill stealing in any other game with a good deathmatch.

I think the secret to a good Tribes deathmatch would be spawning you with an inventory (the game's 3d motion is not conducive to picking up weapons all over the map, since you can't really camp the super weapon, and there isn't really a super weapon to speak of). That way the chokepoints on the map would be popular ammo and health spots (plus inventory stations so you can get into heavier armors than light).

yea

not all "DM" is equal.

team arena is arguably a DM variation, as well bare weapon 1v1 dueling.

but really... a lot is gonna depend on WHO is playing (their skill level, their sportsmanship, etc)

You're got it backwards. In most of the FPS community, a hunters style gametype is considered crap, because you can win with very few to no kills. Hunters rewards the scavenger - it detracts from the point of no team gametypes - killing. Pure deathmatch (if done correctly - tribes have NEVER had a good tribes oriented DM gametype) offers success to the player who is the best fighter, not the player who knows how to scavenge or gets very lucky.

well, i think you have a point here, but i read the trend differently.

i place tribes in a category of 1998-ish, old school high frag and major splash damage games along with UT and Q3A.

think about it... but not in terms of gametypes.

they all heavily rely on splash damage (not spam, but splash). this is in high contrast to most other mainstream online games.

but remember... back in 14.4 days, online games had to basically rely on slower moving projectiles and splash damage as an "equalizer" for pings. now, with all the hitscan oriented gameplay... broadband rules.

so... i dont think it is necesarrily DM and Hunters that the gamers are ignoring as of late... it thinks it is this feeling that there's a frustrating rate of deaths by "accident" or luck in this sense.

so to me, the issue is how to avoid gameplay which FEELS like it's more about luck and getting spammed by newbies... than based on predictable skill-oriented stuff (i.e. i got my ass kicked and i respect what happened to me, instead of i died AGAIN cuz some idiot... blah blah blah)

WTF does this have to do with TR2/3 ?

What? TseTse talking out of his ass? That's normal. Just spouting some of his normal pretentious bullshit.

i'd prefer a new tr2 type game to be more like deathball than tr2.

Deathball is faster and overall i thought was more fun.

What? TseTse talking out of his ass? That's normal. Just spouting some of his normal pretentious bullshit.

wrong forum, nofix

i'd prefer a new tr2 type game to be more like deathball than tr2.

Deathball is faster and overall i thought was more fun.

yea, to me deathball has soemthing very special in being SO simple.

the passing system is newbie friendly, but the really skilled players take the whole thing to another level.

it's like soccer and the best sports. any 5 year old can play... but the skill is in the teamwork and raw sense of how to raise the game a notch in action.

as cool as it is, deathball, however, isnt popular at all.

perhaps because it didnt have the pub support... and the pubs are always filled with a couple of idiots who are really good and refuse to basically pass the ball.

edit: i havent played deathball since the summer, and i know it's changed quite a bit. so, take my comments in that context.

In Tribes deathmatch maybe. I've never had a problem with kill scavenging and kill stealing in any other game with a good deathmatch.
I disagree. Plain and simple.

You cant play a game besides railbait where scavanging isnt an essential part of gameplay. Thats what its all about....hitting an opponent when he is down. Its called "smart".

yea, to me deathball has soemthing very special in being SO simple.

the passing system is newbie friendly, but the really skilled players take the whole thing to another level.

it's like soccer and the best sports. any 5 year old can play... but the skill is in the teamwork and raw sense of how to raise the game a notch in action.

as cool as it is, deathball, however, isnt popular at all.

perhaps because it didnt have the pub support... and the pubs are always filled with a couple of idiots who are really good and refuse to basically pass the ball.

edit: i havent played deathball since the summer, and i know it's changed quite a bit. so, take my comments in that context.

i've played since 1.3, and it was better back then. Its popularity is dropping in the US due to the way Euros run ladders, since it is a euro made mod. Also DavidM and the rest of the devs seem to kill aquired skills that seperate newbs from vets, like dribbling and shit. Also giving the goalie quad jump was a bad idea. The main problem is all the servers a Volley Only, and newbs get flamed to shit cause they dont know how to volley it.

i've played since 1.3, and it was better back then. Its popularity is dropping in the US due to the way Euros run ladders, since it is a euro made mod. Also DavidM and the rest of the devs seem to kill aquired skills that seperate newbs from vets, like dribbling and shit. Also giving the goalie quad jump was a bad idea. The main problem is all the servers a Volley Only, and newbs get flamed to shit cause they dont know how to volley it.

honestly, all that drama might be true... but it was never popular outside a few clans (european or not).

all the politics aside, it wasnt newbie or pub friendly enough.

perhaps the fact that 1337 vets were a tad too concerned with not being on pubs with newbs was part of the problem...

perhaps. in that i totally agree.

again, blaming newbs isnt the problem. building a game mode around vets seems to have BEEN (and remains) the problem for Deathball which is why i think it's applicable to this discussion.

if you put in that kind of Volely BS into a gametype, you inevitably cater to the BS within gamer culture and furthermore cater to the few idiots who deem themselves the only ones worthy of having the ball, etc.

frankly, i played on some of those pubs with "volley only" and refused to deal with that BS. i scored without that 1337 skill gayness, several times, and pissed people off. they whined about me being a newb. i told them to fuck off and good luck with the empty server. you're right, it's a lame rule... in the name of 1337 skills.

most of the server seemed to feel the same and left with me, and there was only like 7-8 people there anyways...

i think this certainly relates to tribes...

i dont think you can build a game or gametype around the slam dunk and expect it to be popular (not an FPS).