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Zoolooman 05-04-2003, 11:48 If you had to come up with something new in T:V, instead of sticking with the old mine disc and all the old weapons.
What would you put in the game?
Mine (from the Mine Disc post):
Along these lines...
There is something I always thought would be so very good in Tribes, and would replace the mine disc.
Thing it's based off of:
Hand grenades. We loved them. They provided extra damage against relatively stationary targets, and if we were lucky, against everything else.
Problem with the current grenades:
They're so icky. The system of holding down for different distances is just distances. They still explode like clockwork after you release them. There is no skill or timing in using these grenades.
Improvements ahoy! Grenade change ideas:
Let's make grenades like so.
Click the grenade button to arm a grenade. A timer (noise or visual) begins counting down. Five seconds. The grenade WILL go off, at five seconds.
When you click the grenade button a second time, the grenade is released. Same throw every time. Nice hard throw. "Look at that arm!" they'll say.
What this means is the grenade can be held back while the counter goes down. In fact, you could let it explode on your person, if you so chose. On the other hand, if you toss it... then BLAMMO. As you get skilled with it, you can cream people dead on with these hand grenades. Aww yeah.
Basically, if I arm a grenade, and wait one second, then it will fly for four seconds on throwing. Wait for 4.3 seconds, and it will go a mere .7 seconds on throwing. Double tap the grenade key, and you simply toss a five second grenade.
Balance issues:
The hand grenades may need to be weaker than nade launcher grenades (do less damage, have less area of effect).
The number of those that you can carry may have to change (less).
If it is too easy, then MA hand grenades may become too common for some people's tastes.
On the other hand, I can only see this as another level to T:V fighting.
So if I had to say no mine discing... then I'd say add in some awesome USEFUL grenades.
Technical note:
Grenades should disarm upon bodily death if not thrown. Or they should drop (relatively speaking) straight down from where the person died. This is so you don't have to keep the grenade stuck - until it explodes - in a body that is flailing about in ragdoll death.
Anyone else have good ideas to improve Tribes gameplay assuming there was no mine disc?
THIS INCLUDES NEW WEAPONS, PACKS, GRENADES, AND OTHER ITEMS. Ideas. :]
FalseMyrmidon 05-04-2003, 12:38 Grenades should disarm upon bodily death if not thrown. Or they should drop (relatively speaking) straight down from where the person died. This is so you don't have to keep the grenade stuck - until it explodes - in a body that is flailing about in ragdoll death.
I like the idea of the body doing it's ragdoll thing and then the grenade going off sending it into another series of ragdoll physics. Also, just so as to not piss anyone off, have a setting in options for 'classic' grenade style where they throw with 1 button press like in T1. I'd also like the grenades in T3 to be more bouncy than the ones in T1. In T1 the grenades just kind of fell down and sat their until they blew up. Having bouncy grenades would add a much larger amount of skill to them, not necessarily outdoors, but indoors it might be possible to lob them around corners and thing like that.
Void|deadjawa 05-04-2003, 12:47 I think there should be a fuel-air grenade that replaces the mine disk. In the spirit of the daisy-cutter bomb, it would explode after a certain distance or after it hits the ground or a player (or it could even be player triggered). Instead of exploding, It would spew a fuel-air concoction in a radius around it. This cloud would last for a few seconds. If anyone shoots the cloud with a disk, plasma, laser rifle or any other high-heat weapon the cloud would ignite infilicting massive damage over a normal-ish radius.
Diablo Escobar 05-04-2003, 12:55 in all honesty zooloo, thats way too ****ing complicated
I'd like to be using my disklauncher, worried about my skiing, watching for cappers, not self timing my goddamned grenades to make sure it hits at the right time... If it were that complicated, i just wouldn't use them.
Zoolooman 05-04-2003, 15:43 It's complex to outline, easy to use Twiztid.
This is the way TFC does their grenades. It is FANTASTIC. In a few hours, it'll become second nature.
To help, they use an audio bleeping, so that it uses up a different part of the brain (visual, audio, etc) to keep track of the grenade timing.
Bleep.... bleep.... bleep.... BOOM! All on a beat.
It's very intuitive. Trust me, it's a tried and true method. In theory it sounds far more complex than the reality makes it out to be.
Sir_Homer 05-04-2003, 16:19 I personally would like to see Sticky grenades like in Halo, Throw a grenade on a cappers back as he is flying away, few seconds later BOOM.
I also would like to see the grenades detonate (if activated) after the user died, seeing someone Die in mid air from a disc or whatever, and then as they fall the grenade detonates, starting a whole new sequence of ragdoll physics.
dunce_boy 05-04-2003, 17:19 sup Zooloo, long time no see :)
hmmm...those nades sound like something we've talked about before...oh wait, we have! ;)
I aggreed about them then, and I aggree with them now!
Whoever said they were "too complicated," they could be simple or complex. I think an option for "tap throw" would be good. It would make it just like T2 nades(with the tap throw script), just gotta hit the button and you throw them. The other way is like zooloo was saying, kinda like you pull the pin and have a certain amount of time before it goes off...and if you dont throw it in time...you're ****ed. :D
Some other ideas that might be good to try out:
Expolding on impact:
Dont you just hate it when you get a nice nade throw on someone, but it just hits them and bounces off?! grr, that tics me off. An idea might be to have them explode on impact, or have a different type of nade that does that.
One issue that comes to mind might be: Too easy to use when close. Although it may be easy to hit someone when they are coming right at you...it will also harm you.
Thats just something that would have to be tested though.
Another idea to add to your post, Zooloo, is it would be cool if, while someone is holding the nade, ready to throw it, if they get MA'd during that time, the nade expoldes in their hand. Kinda like if you go to MD someone and get MA'd right when you toss your mine, "dunce_boy blows himself up"
anyways, thats all i'll post for now :P
so i understand the timer deal, but how does distance of grenade toss get done? does this model use a static throw distance?
Zoolooman 05-04-2003, 19:42 Correct Beren. There is no reason for variable throw distance, as long as the arc is good and strong. You can simply time the nade otherwise.
IMO grenades should be a tad more powerful... take away 70% of a light's health. I mean in Tribes 1 neway, it is ****ing hard to aim those things properly so it can be really used as a weapon, rather than just a spam tool - unless u practise like hell..
Maybe reduce the splash damage - so it wouldnt be used so much for spam, but increase the damage of the actual thing, making more of an incentive for ppl to toss them around.
Actually another idea for a new grenade would be that the throwing mechanism is the same as Tribes 1, but then the second grenade press would blow the thing up. In T1, as many of you have said, they just sorta sat there for a few seconds before exploding. But there should be an option so that you can throw, and decide exactly when to blow them up. For example, someone is about to cap your flag. As soon as they touch the flag, you blow up your nade. I guess with the increased ease of use, they would have to reduce the damage somewhat to around 30% damage or smthn, but from the way I see it, it's not really unbalanced. If the capper is skilled enough, he could see the grenade, disk it, and then grab the flag, not giving enough time for the person to toss another one.
Zoolooman 05-04-2003, 20:33 I think better nades would be nice, but if you look above, I explained a more elegant system.
The problem with simple remote detination is simply how skilless it is. At least with a timed but held back grenade, you won't always get it dead on. It requires skill and timing. A remote det nade is just a throwable boompack.
I think there should be a fuel-air grenade that replaces the mine disk. In the spirit of the daisy-cutter bomb, it would explode after a certain distance or after it hits the ground or a player (or it could even be player triggered). Instead of exploding, It would spew a fuel-air concoction in a radius around it. This cloud would last for a few seconds. If anyone shoots the cloud with a disk, plasma, laser rifle or any other high-heat weapon the cloud would ignite infilicting massive damage over a normal-ish radius.
I like that :)
Greywolf 05-04-2003, 22:57 It's complex to outline, easy to use Twiztid.
This is the way TFC does their grenades. It is FANTASTIC. In a few hours, it'll become second nature.
Im sorry but this is not TFC. This is Tribes i dont plan to be running around bases 9/10 the time. And as for all these changes to Tribes to the grenades, it going to turn out to be used like the flares in T2 or like the concussion grenade.
I agree that grenades would be better if they bounced more then just stopping, but the fact that i have to tap my grenade twice to get it out on time, and also this timer or (as in TFC) multiple beeps is going to get annoying.
My suggestion: Keep grenades so they have better graphics and so they can have ragdoll physics, but dont make it annoying or complicated for n00bs, or even vets.
The only problem I see is that it would be very offensively oriented. What chance does an LD have against a LO that comes screaming over a hill, chaingun already blazing, grenade 3 seconds primed?
Shinigami 05-05-2003, 01:13 The only problem I see is that it would be very offensively oriented. What chance does an LD have against a LO that comes screaming over a hill, chaingun already blazing, grenade 3 seconds primed?
Wouldn't be anything more than a mortar flying at him.
FalseMyrmidon 05-05-2003, 01:14 The only problem I see is that it would be very offensively oriented. What chance does an LD have against a LO that comes screaming over a hill, chaingun already blazing, grenade 3 seconds primed?
better than defense orientation
you do have a point though
Nicodemus 05-05-2003, 01:16 Tribes 1 = Balanced by the players, not by the devs.
Leave the hand grenades alone.
Mine discing, while easy, still is a skill, it doesn't go right EVERY time, and has a million uses in the game. Leave it. And don't make the mines lil skimpy crap things like in T2. That was horrid.
Shinigami 05-05-2003, 01:20 Tribes 1 = Balanced by the players, not by the devs.
Umm, players can't balance a game themselves.
I'd have something like that gun in Unreal Tournament where you shoot the ball, and it deals twice as much damage.
Just like a Plasma ball that continued on for roughly the same amount of time as a regular plasma.
Only it'd have to require a direct hit (or very small radius), because mine-discing is too easy.
Zoolooman 05-05-2003, 01:37 I'm sorry but this is not TFC. This is Tribes. I don't plan to be running around bases 9/10s the time. And as for all these changes to the grenades, it is going to turn out to be used like the flares in T2 or like the concussion grenade.
I agree that grenades would be better if they bounced more then just stopping, but the fact that I have to tap my grenade twice to get it out on time is annoying. Also this timer or (as in TFC) multiple beeps is going to get annoying.
My suggestion: Keep grenades so they have better graphics and so they can have ragdoll physics, but dont make it annoying or complicated for n00bs, or even vets.
First I'm going to proofread your post to make it readable.
Second, I'm going to explain why you have produced strawman arguments and then even failed to knock them down effectively.
1. The relationship of base combat plays no part in the way grenades work. Wow. You don't plan on playing 9/10ths of the game in a base. That's fine. It makes no difference.
2. Like flares or concussion grenades? This would make hand grenades more effective. My biggest fear is they would be overpowered, not useless. You're poking at the wrong strawman Greywolf.
3. Grenade bouncing is great.
4. Beeping or visual timer annoying? Do you find kill sounds annoying? How about the HUDs (telling you all that info - HOW ANNOYING!) The attack on a GAME BALANCE ITEM because it MAY have an annoying aesthetic is the silliest darned strawman I've ever seen. Penalty - ten yards - do over. That's just a big fat failure of an argument.
5. You say it's too complex, when in fact, it's a tried and true effective way of working hand grenades of all variations. Those who find it too complex may find FPS games on the whole, far too complex. Idiots playing TFC find it extremely easy.
Now, onto people with actual points:
The only problem I see is that it would be very offensively oriented. What chance does an LD have against a LO that comes screaming over a hill, chaingun already blazing, grenade 3 seconds primed?
Depends really on the map. If the map allows the offense to NOT see the D incoming from a ways away, then hand grenades will probably be the least of your worries, as heavies and other enemy units armed far better will be appearing suddenly and wiping you away.
In other words, your point, while valid, seems to me to be a slice of a bigger problem. The fact is, ANY weapon can theoretically be used in this manner, if you cannot see the O coming.
On the other hand, it goes both ways if you do see the O coming. The D can prime a grenade just as effectively as the O - if they can see the O and prepare for it.
TFC uses a 3 second grenade, so that reactions times are faster, and defense can use the grenades also.
You may want to consider this timer length in the balance. If the length is too long, it'll be hard to prepare a nade for use.
If the time is too short, it'll go off well, way too quickly.
So Teckman, your point IMHO is just a mistaken identity of an event that relates to map design more than weapon balance.
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