[T:V] Client-side scripting?

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Neek
05-01-2003, 01:00
So I hear that Unreal engine scripting is very versatile, but it does not allow client-side scripting. From what I have heard, the engine does not allow you to run scripts that are not authorized by the server. I'm not sure if this is correct or not as I know next to nothing about scripting.
I would really like to be wrong about this...

Obviously, we want to eliminate the cheats and questionable scripts, but what about the more benign scripts?

Many people in the competitive Tribes community enjoy customising thier playing experience by changing the gui. The ability to script in elements that personalise the game or add in elements that may have been overlooked by the game developer is an important part of a games longevity imho. For me, at least, customising my gui, adding in team counters, speed huds, custom reticles, loadout guis etc etc. is an important part of the experience of playing Tribes.

If indeed this is true, and client side scripts are going the way of the Dodo with Tribes: Vengeance, I will be very unhappy.
As will the large and active scripting community that has been built up around the previous two games, no doubt. :(

Anyone care to shed a little light on this matter or discuss the pros/cons of scripting in T:V?

Sir Lucius
05-01-2003, 02:28
weather the unreal engine allows client side scripting or not is up to irrational.

Neek
05-01-2003, 02:39
I suppose so, seeing as they are modifying the engine a whole lot for T:V. I still have not seen any indication of what their position is on client-side scripting.
I'd still like to know what their plan is as far as scripting goes.

For all we know, they could plan on leaving that part of the engine as-is.

Locke355
05-01-2003, 03:53
no clientside scripting = less crappy cheats.

HURRAY FOR LESS CRAPPY CHEATS!

Neek
05-01-2003, 04:21
no clientside scripting = less crappy cheats.

HURRAY FOR LESS CRAPPY CHEATS!
Ummmm...no.
Cheats use an .exe hack.
The only scripts that maybe pushed the boundry in T2 were the airborne waypoint ones and the automissle. Both of which could have been patched out of the game.

It would be really good if Jsut or uberguy or one of the many other scripters out there could give us their position on this. :)

Beren
05-01-2003, 05:17
ya know, i don't know.

If you could allow scripts on your own PC for testing etc, and there was an easy way to get client scripts verified for online server usage, i would have no problem with that. Be a great way to get on top of some scripts going around, or at least making it a more level playing field to those who don't have access to them. This would still allow the scripting community to push on, while regulating whats going down.

It is interesting, be good to hear a responce from someone on this.

Polaris
05-01-2003, 08:54
I would like to see no scripting, but the ability to manage your hud as you please. Scripting, while great for modders, leads to way too many problems.

Colosus
05-01-2003, 08:58
Without scripting, full throw mines wouldn't be here, skiing wouldn't be as popular, quick inventory wouldn't exist, etc etc etc.

Leave scripting alone. Uberguy made a great post about what to limit in scripting to prevent 99% of script cheats, but that won't help vs things like HappyMod because that is EXE based.

addps4cat
05-01-2003, 11:45
Ummmm...no.
Cheats use an .exe hack.
The only scripts that maybe pushed the boundry in T2 were the airborne waypoint ones and the automissle. Both of which could have been patched out of the game.

It would be really good if Jsut or uberguy or one of the many other scripters out there could give us their position on this. :)


are you kidding me? Have you seen what Lou Cypher has done? His cheats don't use any .exe hack or server side scripting.

Check out some pictures of what he has done
http://personalpages.bellsouth.n et/t/r/trekcat/cheats/

FSB-SPY
05-01-2003, 11:48
Without scripting, full throw mines wouldn't be here, skiing wouldn't be as popular, quick inventory wouldn't exist, etc etc etc.

Leave scripting alone. Uberguy made a great post about what to limit in scripting to prevent 99% of script cheats, but that won't help vs things like HappyMod because that is EXE based.

jsut
05-01-2003, 12:09
are you kidding me? Have you seen what Lou Cypher has done? His cheats don't use any .exe hack or server side scripting.

Check out some pictures of what he has done
http://personalpages.bellsouth.n et/t/r/trekcat/cheats/

A lot of that stuff is done useing a few stupid things that never should have been left in the engine, or at least they never should have been allowed to function when you were a client on a server.

You can do a lot of that stuff without writing a single line of script. It's mostly point and click, and maybe a few lines typed in the console.

AFAIK the Unreal engine is not subject to these same stupid problems.

Sir Lucius
05-01-2003, 12:11
I remeber a discussion on weather you should even be able to waypoint enemy objects. Since the bulk of the script cheats seem to be derived from there. I think what the discussion brought up was maybe they should just remove waypoints and have them set mannually via beacons or have a temporary waypoints from the targeting laser.

We know they are going to cut out a lot of stuff that cheat scripters are take advantage of (or at least try to), so I don't think it will be that bad cheat wise if they handle client side scripting correctly.

[57th]cneal
05-01-2003, 13:06
From: http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=4135079
If client scripting is allowed, there are real simple things such scripts shouldn't be able to do to avoid cheating:
---------------------------------------------------

* Never allow it to determine anything's position or direction (facing or motion).

* To avoid the easy mortar spam issue: do not let scripts set static waypoints (assuming such a thing exists in T:V like in T2). Waypointing people is less obnoxious but also a possibility for non-access.

* Do not expose interface actions that indirectly allow the script engine to create automatic responses (T2 Automissile/flare).

* Do not let scripts know the client's health (special case of the above).

* Do not expose any internal object state tools that allow workarounds to the above limitations. For example never allow tools used for development, mapping or modding to be accessed by the script engine in-game.

Things that I feel are reasonable to give a client script engine:
---------------------------------------------------

* Access to team membership, ammo/loadouts, visual GUI elements.

* Knowledge of keypresses and access to keymaps (one of the damn coolest things in T2 scripting).

* Ability to invoke any function the player could already do with a keypress.

* Ability to save and read text files.

Also the message callback system in T2 was pretty inspired. There's probably some things wrong with it from a game architecture perspective, but the concept is very effective.

Locke355
05-01-2003, 14:33
Ummmm...no.
Cheats use an .exe hack.
The only scripts that maybe pushed the boundry in T2 were the airborne waypoint ones and the automissle. Both of which could have been patched out of the game.

It would be really good if Jsut or uberguy or one of the many other scripters out there could give us their position on this. :)

:lol:

That smiley face sums up all I want to say.

SarcaStick
05-01-2003, 14:35
no clientside scripting = less crappy cheats.

HURRAY FOR LESS CRAPPY CHEATS!
:bigthumb:

Locke355
05-01-2003, 14:45
Without scripting, full throw mines wouldn't be here, skiing wouldn't be as popular, quick inventory wouldn't exist, etc etc etc.

That is my only worry, and a big one at that.

Vang
05-01-2003, 16:33
I can't believe you people are worried about script cheats. The ones in T2 are just from stupid management of how the CC works, and essentially the debugger left accessible to the client. All of these should not happen in T:V.

.EXE hacks are then the only remaining cheats, and all .EXE hacks are impossible to stop.

RedSpider
05-01-2003, 16:42
Without scripting, full throw mines wouldn't be here, skiing wouldn't be as popular, quick inventory wouldn't exist, etc etc etc.

Leave scripting alone. Uberguy made a great post about what to limit in scripting to prevent 99% of script cheats, but that won't help vs things like HappyMod because that is EXE based.

Yogi
05-01-2003, 16:46
The callback system in T2 was ****ing great.

Neek
05-01-2003, 16:57
Ok. For some weird reason this thread has transformed into a discussion about cheats.
Let me make it clear that I hate cheating in all it's forms, and I would gladly see cheating obliterated from online play.
I don't even use those scripts that I consider to be questionable (such as the afore-mentioned automissle & airborne waypoint scripts)
The only stuff I use is the scripts that:

1-allow me to access information that is, for the most part, already available through the game. Such as teamcount, speed/altitude huds, loadout huds and so on.
2-Minimizes keystrokes such as doublefavs. Or allows me to drop inventory items (like a medkit, which until classic introduced it there was no way to do)
3- allows me to customize my huds, reticles, sounds, move/resize/change opacity of huds, etc. etc.
4- allows me to track my personal stats
5-facilitates communication with teammates or enhances the in-game browser to easily find buddies and retry servers on a timer.

None of these things could be in any way construed as cheats. They just personalize and facilitate certain aspects of the game that I think should have been there as options in the first place.
Obviously irrational is not going to be able to predict what people will want as far as benign customization goes, and that's why scripting is so important. It fills in certain holes in the game that the developers left behind, through no fault of their own.

As colossus said, scripting is important not so much for what we know it can do, as it is for the things we cannot predict we will need in the future.

Now let me reiterate. If scripting must be limited in order to get rid of cheats, I'm all for it 137%. I just want to make it clear to Irrational that there are good aspects to scripting and it would be a mistake imho to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Uberguy's excellent post pretty much sums up what must be limited in order to meet a happy middleground between allowing scripts and eliminating cheats. I would like to see more of this sort of post because I would like Tribes:vengeance to allow as much as possible without allowing cheating. The only way Irrational is going to be able to do that is if they have a comprehensive list of what must be disallowed/allowed when it comes to scripting.

Lets help 'em out to make the best game they possibly can.