T3: The Glide pack, and why movement packs should be included in T3.

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Special
04-04-2003, 19:24
I was reading Natural's movement thread, and the subject of gliding was brought up by a few different people. Here's my take on it.

At first I didn't like the idea, I enjoy the uncontrollable sense of always being in combat with gravity. It's like a weird synergy Tribes puts forth. There's nothing better than falling from thousands of feet up, gaining immense speed, and hitting a valley perfectly smooth, all without using too much jets to slow your fall. Exhilarating.

However as I thought more and more about it, I began to like the idea of being able to glide along. Natural mentioned some sort of wing flaps beneath the arms, others mentioned a glide pack. Well, I like the glide pack idea, a LOT. Here's why.

I think we've all come to the conclusion that Tribes is all about movement. Being able to ski a route perfectly is more fun than killing people to many. If you look at the current offerings for packs, one sees that only one of the packs leads to increased movement abilities, and that is the Energy pack. I say we need more movement-oriented packs.

Say, for instance, T3 incorporated the normal array of packs and added in the Glide pack. To be a capper, which pack would you choose, the Energy or the Glide pack? Let's explore the differences in playing style each pack would elicit if chosen.

The Energy pack would give you lots more energy so that you have lots of jets. This, in current Tribes physics models, lends to lots of altitude which equates to lots of speed. It also gives you the ability to always be moving if you are a skillful skiier.

The Glide pack wouldn't add any energy to your energy bar. It simply opens/closes on command using the use pack keybind. Because there is no added energy to your jets, technically it would be impossible to gain any altitude over what you'd be able to do if you didn't have a pack at all.

I will now give you two T3 scenarios as two players who have two very different capping styles, the first being EnergyMan and the second being SugarGlider:

EnergyMan swears by the Energy pack. He comes directly from a T1 background and is very adept at skiing and improvising routes. He is very quick to the flag and exiting it. If you don't snipe him you'll probably lose your flag. We all know what this guy is like, so I will now go onto explaining how I see the Glide pack.

SugarGlider is the best Glide pack user. His style is this: He skis his route towards the flag, but when he comes near it he stays in the air using his Glide pack. Circling above he waits until the flag is clear and then swoops in to grab it. Using his control surfaces on the Glide pack he is extremely manuverable and is able to dodge shots left and right. After grabbing the flag he swoops away, using minimal jets because his momentum is still carrying him at a relatively fast speed (although not as fast as EnergyMan can get). The defense begins to chase him, but is out manuvered by SugarGlider's jukes. Not only that he fans out his glide fins like a giant air brake, stopping him almost instantaneously. The defense overshoots him by a hundred meters, while he discjumps in a different direction to thwart them once and for all as he caps.

So what I am trying to describe here is the fact that adding additional 'movement packs' will allow for even more increase in skill abilities T3 will have to offer. And by not making it default by integrating it into the armor and by making it a pack, you give the choice to players to work on whatever style of play suits them. It also adds a whole new dimension to replayability, something that Tribes reigns superior over other FPSs.

Blotter
04-04-2003, 19:30
i think that's along the same lines as your Grappling Hook idea, which i like better imo. like everyone can equip the grappling hook AND have an epack, i think making a whole new pack for manuevarability would throw the balance off and make things too complicated.

grappling hook > glider pack imo

Natural
04-04-2003, 19:33
Sounds interesting. Arial physics would require some detail.

Special
04-04-2003, 19:45
i think that's along the same lines as your Grappling Hook idea, which i like better imo. like everyone can equip the grappling hook AND have an epack, i think making a whole new pack for manuevarability would throw the balance off and make things too complicated.

grappling hook > glider pack imo

This is true, grappling is much like gliding. However with grappling you'd only be able to grapple maybe 80% of the time, whereas gliding you could do it 100% of the time. I say this under the assumption that you'd only be able to grapple man-made objects (which I think should be the case anyways.)

With grappling you are at the mercy of the string you are attached to. You're either going one way or the other, there's no inbetween gray area. I think people are imagining the Q2 grapple where it's almost all indoors. You always have walls to grapple to. In the outdoor environments of Tribes walls aren't something you see all the time. Gliding to me is a more logical progression for Tribes which to me keeps with the nature of how it plays.

Sir Lucius
04-04-2003, 19:45
Maybe not a pack, but use it in the form of a vehicle?

I think first replace vehicle stations with just a pad of type. When you step on it your preselected vehicle activates and forms around you. The idea is that it's not so much of a vehicle pad, but an armor exo frame pad. You could still have it make vehicles but you'd just call them frames (tribute to exosquad b/c it still rocks :})

Then when you step on the pad you see some cool flash effects and your body is surounded with an angelic wingspan. Make it so any pack you have can't be activated and rather the use pack key will expand the wings (allowing for lift but hurting walking speed), and deactvating it will give you the ability to run a little better (would be the only way to pull off a ski route else the wings would pull you up from the speed). I can think of about a billion aesthetic variations so I won't even go into that.

Anyways, if you make it a frame from the vpad you can easily limit the numbers while at the same time making a useful vehicle that uses your current weapon loadout. It's really not much differnt from a scout or a grav cycle in terms of power. It's just a diffent type of pioleting. Plus you'd be able to drop out of it (potential problem which you may need to look into -- if frames such as this allow you to jump as a player and in effect ski, they will need a seperate vehicle exit key). I think it'd kick ass to have 3 of these things going in on a cap route and have one divebomb down drop his frame and make a grab while the other 2 gliders cover his flank.


I think Special's tribe3 essays are going to really give the game something to live up to.

Special
04-04-2003, 19:52
Maybe not a pack, but use it in the form of a vehicle?

I think first replace vehicle stations with just a pad of type. When you step on it your preselected vehicle activates and forms around you. The idea is that it's not so much of a vehicle pad, but an armor exo frame pad. You could still have it make vehicles but you'd just call them frames (tribute to exosquad b/c it still rocks :})

Then when you step on the pad you see some cool flash effects and your body is surounded with an angelic wingspan. Make it so any pack you have can't be activated and rather the use pack key will expand the wings (allowing for lift but hurting walking speed), and deactvating it will give you the ability to run a little better (would be the only way to pull off a ski route else the wings would pull you up from the speed). I can think of about a billion aesthetic variations so I won't even go into that.

Anyways, if you make it a frame from the vpad you can easily limit the numbers while at the same time making a useful vehicle that uses your current weapon loadout. It's really not much differnt from a scout or a grav cycle in terms of power. It's just a diffent type of pioleting. Plus you'd be able to drop out of it (potential problem which you may need to look into -- if frames such as this allow you to jump as a player and in effect ski, they will need a seperate vehicle exit key). I think it'd kick ass to have 3 of these things going in on a cap route and have one divebomb down drop his frame and make a grab while the other 2 gliders cover his flank.


I think Special's tribe3 essays are going to really give the game something to live up to.

Wow you almost read my mind! I was just about to post about how I think packs should be able to alter the armor's abilites in almost a vehicle-like fashion.

What i'm saying is this, and it's much like what Lucius said. When you do put on a Glide pack you are almost like a scout. But what happens when a heavy puts on a Glide pack? Here is what I'm thinking. What if the heavy had added bonuses when he put on a Glide pack as opposed to a light putting one on? The bonuses being forward jet-powered flight, extra energy for jetting, and maybe a special weapon such as guided bombs? The light would only get 'wings' per-se.

This allows the heavy to be able to play like he's used to playing, but also have the ability to begin skiing, jump in the air, activate his Glide pack, and become a bomber of sorts. After he's done bombing he can turn off his pack and return to the ground to wreck some more havoc.

xpdnc
04-04-2003, 20:11
i'd rather the glider not give much horizontal movement at all...maybe only allow the user to actually move towards the ground faster than he could freefall and use it to swoop at things at insane speeds...

Blotter
04-04-2003, 20:17
This is true, grappling is much like gliding. However with grappling you'd only be able to grapple maybe 80% of the time, whereas gliding you could do it 100% of the time. I say this under the assumption that you'd only be able to grapple man-made objects (which I think should be the case anyways.)

With grappling you are at the mercy of the string you are attached to. You're either going one way or the other, there's no inbetween gray area. I think people are imagining the Q2 grapple where it's almost all indoors. You always have walls to grapple to. In the outdoor environments of Tribes walls aren't something you see all the time. Gliding to me is a more logical progression for Tribes which to me keeps with the nature of how it plays.

i could see how its the logical progression, but i guess its a question of give and take. imo, i'd rather have someone HAVE to make that long swing around if they are going to "juke" someone, not just flip out ur wings and tap to the left then up then right a little bit, it just seems like it'd disrupt the flow and be annoying as **** to have to slam on the breaks when Mr Glider Capper is goin off on his elite move (tap up, left, then right :shrug: ). at least with grappling you'd have some time to adjust and work things out a little more in your head, and hopefully without sacrificing the pace of the gameplay (even if actually executing it is fairly simple, as would dodging with a glider).

Special
04-04-2003, 20:19
i'd rather the glider not give much horizontal movement at all...maybe only allow the user to actually move towards the ground faster than he could freefall and use it to swoop at things at insane speeds...

How does one move faster than freefall? The only way is to have some propulsion behind it, which the Glide pack wouldn't offer. Keep in mind, I'd like to call it a Glide pack, and not a glider. I see a fundamental difference between the two. If you turn the Glide pack on, wings will pop out ready to be used. Turn it off, they disappear into the pack so that you can go about your normal Tribing ways. A glider to me is a vehicle, which I am not envisioning. A vehicle is something you get in and out of, not something you strap to your back.

Yes, swooping is definitely something I see with the Glide pack. Translating freefall velocity into horizontal forward moving velocity is something the Glide pack would do very well. It would be like being about to hit perfect skis all the time without hitting any bumps to slow you down, plus being able to do it off the ground. To me that is awesome.

Special
04-04-2003, 20:24
i could see how its the logical progression, but i guess its a question of give and take. imo, i'd rather have someone HAVE to make that long swing around if they are going to "juke" someone, not just flip out ur wings and tap to the left then up then right a little bit, it just seems like it'd disrupt the flow and be annoying as **** to have to slam on the breaks when Mr Glider Capper is goin off on his elite move (tap up, left, then right :shrug: ). at least with grappling you'd have some time to adjust and work things out a little more in your head, and hopefully without sacrificing the pace of the gameplay (even if actually executing it is fairly simple, as would dodging with a glider).

Yes, I see what you're saying. Everything in life is give and take, and when translated to things such as gaming, that balance gives us excitement. SugarGlider (the guy with the Glide pack) doesn't have a huge advantage over EnergyMan. I was just simply attempting to flesh out different styles in play according to the packs they enjoy using.

If SugarGlider is spending his time juking left and right, most likely he's losing speed, making him a better target for the defenders. If he slams on his brakes and discjumps away, is he necessarily going to be that much better off than EnergyMan who made a straight bee-line back to base? Both the Glider pack and grappling hook ideas are just simply my attempts to spark interest in what I feel makes Tribes the best: Movement.

Sir Lucius
04-04-2003, 20:25
Wow you almost read my mind! I was just about to post about how I think packs should be able to alter the armor's abilites in almost a vehicle-like fashion.

What i'm saying is this, and it's much like what Lucius said. When you do put on a Glide pack you are almost like a scout. But what happens when a heavy puts on a Glide pack? Here is what I'm thinking. What if the heavy had added bonuses when he put on a Glide pack as opposed to a light putting one on? The bonuses being forward jet-powered flight, extra energy for jetting, and maybe a special weapon such as guided bombs? The light would only get 'wings' per-se.

This allows the heavy to be able to play like he's used to playing, but also have the ability to begin skiing, jump in the air, activate his Glide pack, and become a bomber of sorts. After he's done bombing he can turn off his pack and return to the ground to wreck some more havoc.



Intersting thought, but you know how the devs have the crazy idea HOs should be able to fly to a base on their own. If you made them too big to enter bases or had them take damage when they drop their frame, or somrthing like that then perhapes I suppose it can be ballanced. I guess limiting them also makes for a higher priority of not kamakzieing over just to get to the gens. You have to make it more worth it to have in the sky then it would be as a HO on the ground.

Sir Lucius
04-04-2003, 20:27
i could see how its the logical progression, but i guess its a question of give and take. imo, i'd rather have someone HAVE to make that long swing around if they are going to "juke" someone, not just flip out ur wings and tap to the left then up then right a little bit, it just seems like it'd disrupt the flow and be annoying as **** to have to slam on the breaks when Mr Glider Capper is goin off on his elite move (tap up, left, then right :shrug: ). at least with grappling you'd have some time to adjust and work things out a little more in your head, and hopefully without sacrificing the pace of the gameplay (even if actually executing it is fairly simple, as would dodging with a glider).


Keep in mind a giant wingspan means a MUCH bigger target.

Special
04-04-2003, 20:30
Intersting thought, but you know how the devs have the crazy idea HOs should be able to fly to a base on their own. If you made them to big to enter or had them take damage when they drop their frame, or somrthing like that then perhapes I suppose it can be ballanced. I guess limiting them also makes for a higher priority of not kamakzieing over just to get to the gens. You have to make it more worth it to have in the sky then it would be as a HO on the ground.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at, can you maybe elaborate on what you're trying to say? Or maybe restate it somehow...

Sir Lucius
04-04-2003, 20:32
I don't quite understand what you're getting at, can you maybe elaborate on what you're trying to say? Or maybe restate it somehow...


I was talking about a heavy armor with the ability to fly on it's own (such as with the glider). I think it's cuz you said bomber and I misunderstood. So I compleatly forgot about the gliding part and was just thinking about a bomber.

Blotter
04-04-2003, 20:36
Yes, I see what you're saying. Everything in life is give and take, and when translated to things such as gaming, that balance gives us excitement. SugarGlider (the guy with the Glide pack) doesn't have a huge advantage over EnergyMan. I was just simply attempting to flesh out different styles in play according to the packs they enjoy using.

If SugarGlider is spending his time juking left and right, most likely he's losing speed, making him a better target for the defenders. If he slams on his brakes and discjumps away, is he necessarily going to be that much better off than EnergyMan who made a straight bee-line back to base? Both the Glider pack and grappling hook ideas are just simply my attempts to spark interest in what I feel makes Tribes the best: Movement.

yep, agreed, movement (specifically fast movement) is what its all about. im not concerned with an advantage, but more with the flow of things. i dont like the thought of having to worry about him busting out his uber juke moves with some gay pack that i dont have. i like the chase and being right on some cappers ass and both of us goin mach3. thats just what i prefer. im interested in seeing others comments on this. anyhow, thx for the posts, definately gives some good stuff to think about.

TeckMan
04-04-2003, 20:44
How does one move faster than freefall? The only way is to have some propulsion behind it, which the Glide pack wouldn't offer. Keep in mind, I'd like to call it a Glide pack, and not a glider. I see a fundamental difference between the two. If you turn the Glide pack on, wings will pop out ready to be used. Turn it off, they disappear into the pack so that you can go about your normal Tribing ways. A glider to me is a vehicle, which I am not envisioning. A vehicle is something you get in and out of, not something you strap to your back.

Yes, swooping is definitely something I see with the Glide pack. Translating freefall velocity into horizontal forward moving velocity is something the Glide pack would do very well. It would be like being about to hit perfect skis all the time without hitting any bumps to slow you down, plus being able to do it off the ground. To me that is awesome.
But isn't the whole skill and fun of the game having to figure out how to transfer your verticle movement from jets and DJs to horizontal movement by reading the terrain and slopes etc? I think it would kind of newbify things to have a pack that basically skis for you.

Special
04-04-2003, 20:44
I was talking about a heavy armor with the ability to fly on it's own (such as with the glider). I think it's cuz you said bomber and I misunderstood. So I compleatly forgot about the gliding part and was just thinking about a bomber.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I was saying that with your armor type, the Glide pack would augment your abilities accordingly. So a light would end up being just a suit with some wings, while a heavy would maybe have bomber-like capabilities.

Special
04-04-2003, 20:46
But isn't the whole skill and fun of the game having to figure out how to transfer your verticle movement from jets and DJs to horizontal movement by reading the terrain and slopes etc? I think it would kind of newbify things to have a pack that basically skis for you.

Very true, it would in a sense newbify things. Keep in mind you won't always be in the air, because you don't have unlimited jets, and you can't stay in the air indefinitely. You do have a good point, I think I'll have to let the counterpoint marinate in my head a little bit :)

Special
04-04-2003, 20:48
yep, agreed, movement (specifically fast movement) is what its all about. im not concerned with an advantage, but more with the flow of things. i dont like the thought of having to worry about him busting out his uber juke moves with some gay pack that i dont have. i like the chase and being right on some cappers ass and both of us goin mach3. thats just what i prefer. im interested in seeing others comments on this. anyhow, thx for the posts, definately gives some good stuff to think about.

Yes, I agree with you, the flow would be upset. I too enjoy chasing cappers at mach 3, that's part of what makes Tribes fun, right? Yes, more people need to comment about this 'flow' issue because right now my brain is locking up.

Locke355
04-04-2003, 21:00
I like the idea of vehicles being turned into an exosteleton, so long as it is a somewhat bulky exoskeleton and adds to the size of the player model.

As for a glide pack in the forms described here? No. And here is why. Enabling a capper to do this: "Circling above he waits until the flag is clear and then swoops in to grab it." will get old in about 5 whole seconds. Remember the scout in t1? Remember how annoying it was to have some tard with floating around RC or RD and all you could do is pray for a chain bullet to hit him, or snipe him? Now make it so that on any map you can grab the flag. Oh the fun.

Tribes is about fast movement in relation to the ground, not in relation to flying. There is a large difference between being a static height off the ground going over landscape and "skiing" through valleys and over terrain. The worst part about this glide pack idea is that it renders 1/2 the weapons in the game (weapons from t1 and t2) useless when it comes to killing the glider, especially if they are going at any sizeable speed.

Just my 2 cents.